Wildest Dreams at My Back, With Actor, Director & Educator, Cloteal L. Horne

In this week's episode of Let Perfect Burn, I sit down with Cloteal L. Horne— an actor, a director and an educator who currently resides in Brooklyn, New York. Cloteal's most recent work was in Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye at The Huntington Theatre. This production was adapted for stage by Lydia R. Diamond and directed by Awoye Timpo.

Cloteal speaks to her deep-rooted belief that every time she walks into a room, whether it be as an artist or educator, that she has her ancestors, both known and unknown, at her back. She talks about the weight and the wonder of being able to be in a room creating art because of the blood, sweat, tears, joy and liberation strategies of Africans and African Americans. She tells me, “My life is a luxury. It isn’t perfect, but I certainly recognize I would not be where I am without that level of struggle and love. That there were so many acts of love that made me.”

Born the 7th out of 10 children, Cloteal was raised by her grandmother, whom she shares a name. From her grandmother, Cloteal learned there is a power in femininity, that there is sway by standing in her womanliness, that there is power in yielding and strength in a tender ferocity.

Cloteal asks us if her story matters. Cloteal asks us if she can find the spaces where she can sing the song of her mother or the secrets that were whispered in her ears as child. She tells us, “It’s not neutral, my lived experience, and how it shows up in a room.”

Cloteal paints multiple pictures of being a black woman in white spaces, including in the idea of "perfect". “As a black woman, perfect has been a white standard in some ways, as opposed to being who I really am— who I am with my grandmother, my cousins, my siblings, my friends. Feeling like I have to be this performative version of myself to be validated. So, for me, that is the perfect I want to burn.”

Some highlights in this Episode from Cloteal:

" It did make it harder in those rehearsal rooms with predominantly white casts. I had to keep saying, 'Can we examine this production of A Midsummer Night's Dream that is set in the 20's? I am a black woman and what does it mean to uproot this production and put it elsewhere?' So, you know, I fight those battles in a room. It's like, you can't just erase my black body. It's a black body."

" Power is not always maleness. It's, I am going to listen, I am going to attune, I am going to pause, I am going to pray, I am going to wait, I am going to gather."

" Where I'm at is where the party is at. And if it's not where THE party's at, it's where I'm at, and that's gotta be enough."

Don't Miss a Beat.
Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/

Website for Cloteal L. Horne:
https://www.cloteallhorne.com/

Original Music for Let Perfect Burn by Eleri Ward
https://www.instagram.com/eleriward/

Transcript

Tara Beckett: 0:10

Hi, I'm Tara Beckett and welcome back to let perfect burn. In today's episode, I sit down with Khloe teal Lee horn to talk about her deep rooted belief that when she enters a room, be it as an actor or as an educator. Her ancestors, both known and unknown, are there at her Beck. coetail talks about the journey of coming into her own, finding power in her femininity, faith that there is a sway in her womanliness and being unrelenting in seeking out the spaces where she can sing the song of a black woman, unforgiving in her authenticity and embracing all that makes her whole Welcome back, everyone to let perfect burn this morning. I'm here with Khloe teal Lee horn. She's an incredible woman. She I know her from Boston University where she got her BFA I was in the directing MFA program. And from there she went on to get her MFA in acting from Brown University and Trinity rep. She has been in bazillion productions all over the regional theater circuit, and just finished at the Huntington Theatre Company and Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye. So hi, Khloe, Tia. Good morning.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 1:42

Hello, good morning.

Tara Beckett: 1:46

So nice to reconnect. So coetail, I went, you know, on your website, trying to get a sense of where you've been since we were connected. And I came across something in your bio, where you said, you are gratefully standing on the shoulders of those who have come before me. I am a product of my grandmother's prayers and my ancestors wildest dreams. And I I mean, I just got the Goosebumps again. Right? And can we just start there and tell us that story?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 2:26

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I too, felt that the goosebumps. You know, I that is really important for me to like, always put in my bio, but just also just acknowledge that like, my origin story is what makes me the artist, the human being that I am and my grandmother, right, my grandmother's prayers. My grandmother, her name is coattail McClay, and she raised me and because I'm one of 10 kids, somehow serendipitously like of those 10 kids, I was the one who got raised by my grandmother, who I just so happened to be named after. And that woman is like, I just know that I would not be the human being that I am today without her. And that's really important for me to acknowledge. So whenever I come in the room, I'm like, a when people encounter my name, they're encountering her first. And then when they meet me, they're meeting her through me. And, and that's really important to me, because I think she's amazing. Like, when I think about like female role models, like she in so many ways, like, she, she just is she's kind of like, She's incredible. So

Tara Beckett: 3:42

you tell us a little bit about her so we can feel her?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 3:47

Yeah. Well, so, you know, I think it's interesting, because I think that one of the things that shaped my grandmother, and especially as like, I, I get to know her more as an adult rather than a child, I come to learn that, like, you know, when she was really young, she was like an animal lover, like, like, she lived on a farm in Arkansas, and her dad, you know, they used to farm and used to, you know, take care of chickens and stuff. And she would always like, go and protect the little chickens because they would try to you know, eat them. And so, she would always be like protecting the animals and just had this like, this love for nature. And, you know, she tells me stories about how she would always like sneak off down near the river and like, you know, try and like read or like write poems or create stories. And so, I really think that like that storyteller bug is something that I got from her. And it's something that she, you know, wasn't able to realize in the way that I'm able to realize as an artist today, but you know, she would write stories and I remember like, growing up like we would write little stories for my brother and like little books like Devin learns to Devin learns Devin loves his, his troll his toys. Right? So my brother's name is Devin. And so we would write little stories to help him learn to read with his name in it. And so she just had this love for creativity and, and still does has this love for creativity. She's actually visiting me right now. And this morning, I woke up to her singing, she's got this Oh, lovely soprano voice and so yeah, so she so it's interesting, because like she, you know, love for creativity and for nature. And then she became this probation officer, you know, so she's also like this, like, rules, regulation, respect, but care for like keeping family units together and trying to keep kids on the right track. So that's in her retired life. But But yeah, she's I just, I always refer to her as the backbone keeping me straight. You know, she is, yep. Yeah, she's my everything I call her about everything.

Tara Beckett: 6:16

So awesome. And the second part of that, and my ancestors, wildest dreams.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 6:25

Yeah, you know, I've just been, that's important to me, because now I've kind of edited it. And I realize I have to, like, update that, but of like, that I am the embodiment of their dreams, like everything that it took for, like my family legacy to like, push through and pull through to arrive. And, and the dreams that they've had the dreams that they weren't able to realize, like that. They are coursing through me at every moment. And I remember when I was like, auditioning for grad schools, a mentor of mine was like, when you walk in, you have your ancestors at your back, and you just feel them pushing you forward. And that image in a real way, and especially throughout, I've had like two years to really sit with myself and think deeply and connect with family family zooms. And just to learn more about, you know, my great great grandparents, my grandmother's parents, and, and, and my parents, parents, and like all that, right, so just to really be like, I know, and I kind of think ancestrally, like, in a larger way to like, like, just the black race like African Americans, Africans, like, just understanding that I am in the rooms that I'm able to be in today because of their blood, sweat and tears and because of their joy and their liberation strategies, that that that's what affords me the the life of the luxury like I'm life isn't perfect, but it's certainly I recognize that there's, I wouldn't be where I'm at without that level of struggle and love, you know, that they were all acts of love that that made me

Tara Beckett: 8:29

You mentioned going into graduate school when you are auditioning. Can you speak a little bit about that? Experience? You know, looking at your bio, I saw a lot of being in productions of Shakespeare. And did you find that as an actress? That you were playing roles written for you specifically as a black woman? Or did you find yourself not having that kind of access? So just love to know your experience?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 8:59

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I was always, like, you know, given those access to like, access to be like, to bring my ancestors Well, I'm always given the opportunity to bring my ancestors on stage with me, right? Because they're everywhere I'm at. But like, you know, to really tell black stories like is not something that was always offered right? And now I'm excited because there's so much more material and it's being produced more, but actually when I think back to like my time at BU I'll go back to undergrad, you know, thinking about my experience of I think first and intimate apparel and then and as in Marisol with you, you know getting to play you know, black women or like just being able to connect with language from you know, that, that fit in my mouth a little more, you know, yep. And that I could really lean and bring my full self too. So I feel like those were like the first experiences that I've had. And I've been very lucky to get to do more roles, you know, with all black casts or global dirty casts and, and even with Shakespeare, I mean, I think there's like this veil of whiteness, or like, you know, that can kind of get cloaked onto Shakespeare. And, you know, people really want to hold tight to that, but I really I don't, I don't see it that way. You know, there's like, a universal truth of humanity that I think shapes is really getting after. And so, you know, every time I did when I did my Porsche, when I did, yeah, it was, it was a black woman. Right. Right. And I was very aware of that. I do think that it did make it harder in those rehearsal rooms, with predominantly white cast, you know, to really be like, What can we examine this production of A Midsummer Night's Dream that set in the 20s? And I'm a black woman, and can we talk about, like, you know, can we do a little more dramaturge? You know, drama? Yeah, rouse Yeah, what it means to uproot this production and put it elsewhere. So you know, fighting those battles in the room or, or trying to bring a more authenticity to the world about being like, alright, we can't just erase my black body, it's a black body, and the black male body, you know, so let's now there's so many stories to tell

Tara Beckett: 11:45

the production that clue teal and I, we mentioned earlier with Marisol, it was one of my favorite productions I've ever directed. Because as a cast, I feel like we really push the boundaries of that theater, even of just, you know, reversing the stage and making this apocalyptic destruction zone in the pretty pristine seats of that Calder. But theater, right? That there was something really real about taking the theater away from very comfortable space and pushing the boundaries of what that meant. You know, you played the angel for Marysville. And I was going back to my script and one of your texts was I kickstarted your heart Marisol. I wired your nervous system. I pushed your fetal blood in the right direction, and turn the foam and your infant lungs to oxygen. When you were six, and your parents were fighting, I helped you pretend you were underwater, that you were a cold blooded fish in the bottom of the black ocean far away and save. I was there when racist ran you out of school at 10. Screaming and Oh, I love

Cloteal Lee Horne: 13:10

so good. I'm over here crying.

Tara Beckett: 13:14

And that was you girl. That was easy. So I think we heard about your grandmother. And in some ways, it sounds like she was your angel. She was your guardian angel. Just like you are for Marisol. And I'm just wondering if there's anybody, and maybe it's your grandmother again, but anybody that kept you safe as you were growing up or kept you safe as you were going from your young adulthood into your more adult in some ways grown MFA and onto New York.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 13:47

Yeah. Oh, I love that. And thank you for like reactivating that text for me because it literally makes me emotional. And I and I'm glad that you're like, broadening that thought, right? have, you know, because I've had many angels, like, I just know, that like, I wouldn't be anywhere that I am today without, you know, these angels who are like, who know better for me than I knew at the time and like, just kind of guided me and, you know, I'm someone who I've been blessed to have many mentors and like, you know, it started with my grandmother, but also my aunt. My Aunt Yvette was certainly another like Angel like she just was, she taught me the spirit of joy, right? If my grandmother taught me like creativity and rigor and hard work and what it means to be, you know, to be a thinking being. My aunt taught me about joy and liberation. And I think that that I think a lot about her you know, both I'm lucky to have my grandmother and my aunt still alive, but when I, I don't know, when I think about like, just her, her levels of joy, like it's as a, I find it sometimes hard to allow myself to experience that kind of pleasure and enthusiasm, right, there's something and like to be like, I can point back to a black woman in my history who just was very, very liberated and like, you know, was always laughing, playing games and, and so I so on a personal level, I would say that she's someone else who like keeps kickstarting my, you know, then pointing me in my heart, right. And reminding me of that, like, the pledge like that pleasure is important, especially as a black woman, you know, like, I'm like, I can embrace all of that. So she's one and then I have this incredible mentor Michelle Shea, who's this brilliant actor, director, educator, and original Aug, both Sony and like, she originated a few of those roles within the Wilson canon. And I think she too, you know, like teaching me the power of femininity, the power of like, you know, just standing in my in my womanliness, and the sway of that, you know, the power of the yielding, and also the command, you know, the commander then?

Tara Beckett: 16:43

Can we go a little farther with that power? And like, what does that look like? And, you know, if you were to describe it for our listeners, I've just, What is that power that Khloe teal comes into that room with?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 16:57

Oh, my gosh, um, yeah, I mean, well, when I Well, as I feel it in my body right now, right, I just feel like there's a warmness of my heart, my like, there's a, it's a, a tender ferocity, it's just like, I am not afraid to be, you know, wildly imaginative, creative, like, you know, finding solutions, both caring for right, caring for the communities that I'm with, but also caring for myself, and understanding that those two things are one in the same. Just embracing that wildness and, like trusting my intuition that I'm now learning that like, power, it's not this male like, you know, it's not necessary. It's not maleness, always, right. It's not just like, I'm going to assert and dominate, it's, I'm going to listen, I'm going to tune I'm going to pause, I'm going to pray, I'm going to wait, I'm going to gather, I'm going to eat right, like, I'm going to nurture, it's, it's all of those things, and, you know, and more. And so, I think that that's like, when any room that I am in, whether I'm like creating it as a director or as an educator, you know, holding, you know, spaces where young minds and bodies can like feel their power, or whether or not I'm like, you know, with, you know, with with my partner or whether or not I'm you know, like with my family, like just understanding that being in tune is actually is the greatest power, right, listening to myself, and declaring boundaries where I need to, and also being like, Okay, I know I needed that boundary to protect me then. But maybe now I can go on the adventure that this is offering to me

Tara Beckett: 19:03

if you were to look at coming out of your grandmother's home, and into this place that you are now can you think of things you shed that actually made you who you are today in a really powerful, great way, even if that shedding was painful.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 19:22

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I think I have had to, you know, like many people like, like, my family story is, I used to attach a lot of shame to it, right? Because I went from like, Sam being growing up in San Diego being one of 10 kids, like, you know, parents who have struggled with drug and alcohol lism. And, you know, domestic violence and I was sheltered from a lot of that. But there's been survivor's guilt, right. There's been like this huge amount of life I'm in these rooms people are cheering me on and expecting great things from me. But sometimes, you know, I would feel like, Oh, I'm a, like, do I deserve this? Right? Like this, like this feeling of like, not enough. And I would say like, especially when I think back to my time at Boston University, which was like, my first exodus from like, my family origin story, you know, like, in a major way, 3000 miles away, in a totally new place that's predominantly white, very moneyed, you know, environment. And, and being like, Oh, does my story matter? Right, does, like, can I tell this? Can I sing the song of my mother in this space? Can I tell the secrets that were whispered in my ears from my sisters and have and share those in this space? And have that be okay, and accepted? Right, so like this. So I've had to shed years of like, feeling guilty for surviving. And it wasn't until I got to grad school where, you know, it was a very challenging time for me. But I had to realize that I wasn't the only one who survived, right, that it was so self centered of me to think that just because my siblings aren't living the life that I live, that they didn't survive in their own way, right? Like, yes, my siblings are incredibly well adjusted. And, and, and chasing their dreams, and, you know, entitled to their struggles, like many others are, but they're living you know, they're seeking further liberation in the same way that I am. Our circumstances were different. But so bad to like, shed those thoughts of like, oh, survivor's guilt, you know, I had to shed imposter syndrome, right? Of like, you don't deserve to be here. Why you? Right? When it's like, I'm one of 10 kids, but only me and my youngest brother, were raised entirely by my grandmother, and there are so many, I think that's why I became a storyteller, because I'm, I wanted to know, why. Why me, you know, like, how did I get to this? How was I so fortunate and, and, you know, feeling like I was set apart, but knowing that that there's no hierarchy actually, like, that's what I've had to come to learn that there's no hierarchy in the lived experience. It's just everybody is living their experience. And our humanity makes us equal. So yeah, so and also, knowing I've had to, I used to think that, you know, that I was born from pain, or, like, you know, my parents story, but actually, I was born from love, like my parents, like, they loved each other. Like, I'll, I often share their wedding photo, because when I look at that, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, like, they were an incredible partner ship, you know, they have an incredible union. And and in many ways, I'm like, oh, I want that aliveness within a partnership that they shared enough to birth 10 Kids, right, right, and enough to stay together for like, 20 someone years and, and I want those things, I will make different choices, and already have made different choices. But that I was born from love. And that, like owning that and accepting that, like allows me to move through the world. integrating all of myself, and all of my family histories that make me me. Yeah. But finally, when I got to Brown for my MFA, I just, I was like, this education system is very broken. There's a lot of like, like, especially I was like, God, I don't know how to teach my black body, you don't even know how to welcome my experience into the room for me to show up authentically, to like be the artists to teach me from the place that I am. And I have since learned that that's part of my responsibility, right to have the courage to always bring that into the room and acknowledge that when I'm in the room, but also I've acknowledged that there are certain things within the environment that that that make that possible or can discourage that. And so I got very upset So with like, what environment? Do I need as a, as a as an artist to be my best self? And what, what rooms? Can I create, you know, to both foster that for myself, but also bring that into other young learners? Right? I, I don't think of I don't call them, you know, the folks that I'm like, leading their learning experience, I don't call them students, I call them learners because, and I call them and I don't really call myself a teacher, I call myself a lead learner, because it's very clear to me that, like, I'm learning, they're learning, how are we learning together, right. And that allows me to take accountability in a way that's like, that I didn't watch certain teachers take accountability for right. So like, they, I when failings happened, I watched them double down and assert your power in ways. And whereas I'm like, Yes, call me in, I will mess up, I'm going to let you know right now. Like, I will fail you. But also, like, through that failing, you will learn things. And also through that failing, I will learn things and hopefully we built enough trust in relationship in this learner to learn our relationship that I can learn and recover with. So we can fix it in this moment, right? So, so it's really shifted my philosophy with how I hold spaces, and how I you know, engage in that. And so I've been teaching, I was teaching at NYU for like, the past, like year and a half. And that, and that's been an important journey to me, but I also have been like, Oh, these academic environments are not, I don't, they're not what I want them to be. And I don't know. You know, there's so many ways to adjust to that, right, I can either continue to change it from within, create, or create other spaces adjacent to it that like, you know, liberate me and others. So it's, so I'm in the middle of like, figuring out what's the how do I honor that educator and me, the person who loves to build sacred learning environments? You know, that's, that's, that's really important to me, right? How do we create the conditions where we can be our best possible self, it took me a long while to even have a teacher of color, let alone a black teacher. Kind of, like, you know, who felt? Yeah, who could like really pour into me and, and so it's not neutral, you know, my lived experience and how that shows up in a room. And I, and it also gives me deep gratitude for all the teachers who both like, supported me, and also, you know, we're difficult to navigate because it's just breeded, you know, more awareness. And, and I'm very aware that there will be there will come a time as I continue my like, you know, journey as an educator, that, that folks will come along and build better models, right. Like, that's the hope. And, and I welcome that, you know, and not to be attached to that, that power struggle that sometimes happens in academia.

Tara Beckett: 28:37

It's such a ridiculous bummer that Toni Morrison's Bluest Eye closed because of COVID. Early. Yeah. But like, you know, you and I were chatting before the recording, it's this new world, right? Where we have to be really kind of ready for things to disappoint, or to stop before we're ready. And is there anything about being an artist during COVID, that has really pushed your boundaries? I

Cloteal Lee Horne: 29:08

think that it did push my limits by way of like, my dream capacity, right? Because I had realized that like, in the middle of that pandemic, I was like, Oh, well, what do I really want? What do I really want versus what do I say I want because it seems like the thing that I should want, because everybody else wants it, and people want it for me and all of this stuff. So it really like it pushed my boundaries, like to push my imagination, right? And like, and to be like, Oh, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I don't have to go about my artistry in this way. Maybe New York isn't the epicenter even though I love New York, right? It just really, it encouraged me to like get more specific about how I want to to shift my, my that like superpower that I think many artists have, which is to be adaptable, right? To be flexible, I think those are things that like we have to have as humans. And as artists, you know, we really have to have it. But it also like, was like, Girl, let me know what I was going to do and what I was not going to do. And I just did not, there are certain things I will not put up with anymore. But yeah, but it also pushed my boundaries by way of like, really knowing that I'm enough, right? Like this, like, being like, oh, what happens? Like, I'm still not on social media, it's something that like, I've just kind of like cycled myself away from because this sort of compare contrast, this kind of like, who booked what, who didn't book what, who got, you know, like that sort of it's sent. Comparing and contrasting that can happen, you know, for artists and that, like, I sometimes found myself falling into, like, it just taught me that like, okay, where I'm at is where the party is, is like,

Tara Beckett: 31:12

I love that. It's like,

Cloteal Lee Horne: 31:15

you know, it's it's, it's not where the parties that it's where my party's at. And that's got to be enough. And, and that has been like, that's a boundary that I didn't even know that existed. I thought I was like, Oh, of course, like, I you know, I'm good. And then to be like, Oh, well, who am I without, you know, incessantly booking Who am I without? You know, I don't know, who am I without those trappings of like, I'm an artist booked and blessed, you know? Okay, I do have one life, how am I living it as fully as I possibly can, because eventually, if, if things, you know, if they go the way I intend them to, then I will be building space for, you know, a family and, you know, little ones and all of that, but you never know, it's that, you know, and living with that level of uncertainty. And knowing that it's pervasive in all areas of my life. I've chosen to be an artist is like, Hey, girl.

Tara Beckett: 32:40

And it just keeps coming. That's I've tried to get better with not thinking there's a finish line, honestly.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 32:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Tara Beckett: 32:49

Riding the waiting the waves in a boat that keeps changing sizes.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 32:55

Oh my gosh, absolutely. Because it does. It's like it's like you're like up and this is okay. Champions adjust. You just gotta keep adjusting just

Tara Beckett: 33:08

so close, he'll, whether it's your artistry or otherwise, like, what's next for you?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 33:15

Oh, I think I am interested in in like embracing. There's, there's a, there's a pause coming up right now. There's like something in my like, life that I just know, I need to. I don't, it's hard to articulate because it's not an artistic thing. It's definitely a personal thing. Like, I think that the past few processes that I've been a part of, as an artist have illuminated some, like, ways of being that I want to shift within myself or like that I want to cultivate practices around, you know, and I think that I'm just looking forward to like, having some space to like, be with myself. I, I don't know, I I miss myself, which is a strange, I don't know, feels like a strange thing to say but, but like, there's been a lot of change. And I don't think I've gotten to like check in with myself for a sustained period of time of like, what's really happening, what's not happening, right? Like, what do you want to be happening? So I'm looking forward to going into the cocoon a little bit, whether it be for like, you know, even if it's three weeks, even if it's a month, even if it's the entire I don't know, but I am just I feel within myself that it's like I kind of even if it means I have to say no to a project or you know, just I have to figure that out because something is growing. And I don't know, like, what it quite is. Yeah, I haven't stood still enough to be able to, like, you know, let her out. Yeah, to let her out and to clock in and be like, what do you need to say? How can I support you? Like, what do you need from me? And just be like, I need you to sit your ass down somewhere, like, Just be still for a second, you know? And like, and I totally respect that. So yeah, that's what you need. I'm going to give that to her. But something is cooking. And, yeah, it's, I'm excited about it. But I, but I don't know what it is. And I think

Tara Beckett: 35:41

I love them.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 35:42

Okay with that. Yeah,

Tara Beckett: 35:44

it feels I it just feels brave, to be honest. Like, it just feels brave, because I think it is way easier for you to just keep booking gigs and productions and teaching, you know, just keep running. That, you know, it's hard work, but it's a little bit emotionally easier. Am I putting words in your mouth?

Cloteal Lee Horne: 36:05

No, you're not? Yeah, I think it is. Because you're, I find that as an artist, I'm of service to the larger project as opposed which and ultimately, it serves my life, right. But I'm, I just something is looking to crack inside me. And I just, I think it means a little time and space. And it didn't necessarily have a full time to crack during the pandemic, because I was lucky enough to be working and to be doing other things that it but I just need to sit myself down somewhere

Tara Beckett: 36:54

go to Oh, this one's a good one. This just made my day and just filled my cup. And before we end, I would love for you to speak to what let perfect burn brings up in you.

Cloteal Lee Horne: 37:08

Oh, oh my gosh. It um Well, it, it feels like liberation. It feels like, you know, like all the old versions of myself. And I thank them for helping get me to where I'm at. But but you know, it's, uh, but they've got it. But I've been such a perfectionist, you know, and like, I mean, it can it serves me but also it doesn't right, like getting, like, I think that that's where I'm like, I just need to go somewhere and sit down. Because I have built this machine, this thing that like works really well, very well oiled, like does the thing. But it's but there's something not fully baked yet. And I think that that I'm aware of like, it's so simple, but like I've done enough self tapes to know that my perfectionism does not serve me because I gotta get it right. And I got to get it right. And I got, you know, and and I think I'm just really like just burn that just let it go. Like find the freedom, like follow impulse and intuition. Yield instead of do like just all those things. So to me let perfect burn is you know, that like this image of myself, like just being able to, like, let that image fade away to like, allow what actually is right, the contradictions, the multiplicity of it, the sort of depth of it, you know, and in my case, it's like, if I can continue to just, like, just honor my like, for me, it comes by way of like, honoring my real, like my story, you know, I've done so much of like, trying to fit into very whitespaces hiding my cousins and all of them, or like not even hiding them but like just not being able to, like, be my full self. You know, and I think that you know, as a black woman perfect has meant has like been a white standard in some ways, as opposed to like, just who I really am, you know who I am with my grandmother, I am with my cousin too. I am with my siblings, and my friends, rather than feeling like I have to be this performative version of myself to To exists to be validated, you know so to me like that's the biggest like let perfect burn let back down

Tara Beckett: 40:18

Well, it's been a pleasure and I can't wait to watch you sit still and grow in whatever way that means whether I can catch you in another production or you know, hear about your teaching or hear about the next book you write about taking your power as a black woman. I mean, all those things seem totally feel appropriate. Yeah. It's been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time to go to

Cloteal Lee Horne: 40:49

thank you so great to reconnect and more soon. Yeah, of course. Bye.