Let Perfect Burn

To Sit With Grief, With Sr. Communications Manager for Experience Camps for Grieving Children, Michelle Cove

• Tara Beckett • Season 1 • Episode 11

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In this episode, I sit down with the wildly funny, authentic-as-hell Michelle Cove, the Senior Communications Manager for Experience Camps for Grieving Children. When Michelle was 20 years old, she lost her father. She continued by living in a state of shock, until 12 years later, she fell apart. She was in a loving, supportive marriage with a young child, and the trauma of her young adulthood hit hard. “It threw me because I didn’t know why. And the reason why was that I was safe. I was in a stable place, all around me. There were signs that said it’s okay now to fall apart.”

Michelle takes us on her journey that led to her current professional role as the Senior Communications Manager for Experience Camps for Grieving Children. The campers are young people who have lost a parent or parent figure or a sibling. With Covid, Michelle has seen even more applications for campers whose loved one has died of overdose or suicide, the pandemic making life, especially in communities of color, impossible, exacerbated by the lack of mental health access.

Michelle brings her life experience to her organization in her daily work, getting the word out about the camp, amongst other missions. She focuses on education for supporting those grieving: “If we are talking about grief, or if we’re talking about depression or anxiety or anybody facing any adversity— just sitting with them, not trying to fix it, or give them your wisdom. Nobody needs your advice. Just, ‘that sounds hard.’ Or, ‘I want to hear what it’s like for you.’ Or, ‘I’m just listening.’”

Highlights from Michelle:

"And I realized that Goddammit, there were gifts from the death of my Dad. And the biggest one was I don't take time for granted."

"You're valuable just because you're valuable. You're worthwhile because you're you. And everything after that is just extensions of what you want to put out into the world. And it's such a different way to live when you really get that."

"I think authenticity is the hottest thing in the world. People showing you who they really are— take me or leave me. This is me. I don't know what's better than that. I love showing up that way and I love it in other people. It's the thing I find the most attractive."

Don't Miss a Beat.
Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/

Learn more about Michelle Cove:
http://www.michellecove.com/

Experience Camps for Grieving Children:
https://experiencecamps.org/

Original Music for Let Perfect Burn by Eleri Ward
https://www.instagram.com/eleriward/

Tara Beckett:

Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and you're listening to let perfect burn. My guest today is Michelle cove of experience camps for grieving children. When Michelle was 20 years old, she lost her father. She continued on by living in a state of shock. Until 12 years later, she fell apart. Michelle was in a loving, supportive marriage with a young child and the trauma of her young adulthood hit hard. She says, It threw me because I didn't know why. And the reason why was that I was safe. I was in a stable place all around me. There were signs that said it's okay now to fall apart. But shell takes us on her journey that led to her current professional role as the senior communications manager for experience camps for grieving children. The campers are young people who have lost a parent, or parent figure or a sibling. Michelle focuses on education for supporting those who grieve. She says if we are talking about grief, or if we're talking about depression, or anxiety, or anybody facing adversity, just sit with them. Don't try to fix it or give them your wisdom. Nobody needs your advice. Just That sounds hard. Or I want to hear what it's like for you. Or I'm just listening. Hi, welcome back to let perfect burn. And today I'm here with Michelle Kolb. And Michelle used to be my upstairs neighbor back when I live in Brookline. And a couple of things that I will never forget about Michelle one. When my son was a newborn, she knocked on the door. She said, You've got one hour, and I'll take the baby and do whatever you want. And you probably were next to God at that point. Because you took my child and I got to lay down and go to sleep. The other thing that I'll never forget is when I was in the throes of like postpartum depression and a you know, kid who wouldn't sleep and crying and just sort of losing my mind in an epic snowstorm. Do you remember this? Like, when we set the record? We like set the record of that one. Yeah. Oh, God. And you know, you said, what got me through early motherhood was knowing that there was always a fire station that I could drop her off at? Do you remember this?

Michelle Cove:

Oh, totally. My friend. Dana told me that there are fire stations in Watertown. And if you leave your kid in a basket, they have to take it. I was like, Okay, done. And you said, I remember you said something like, that idea got me through because you said I would think about it, and then say, I'm not quite to the fire station, so I'm gonna hang on. Yeah, my daughter's 17. And I still think

Tara Beckett:

I could leave her Watertown at a fire station. Perfect. And your daughter is now going off to college? Which Yeah, crazy. So can you talk a little bit about where you are now as a mother?

Michelle Cove:

Yeah, I actually just wrote about this recently, because, you know, those first years, man, when everybody's like, time goes so fast. You have to treasure these very special moments. And like, can I swear on?

Tara Beckett:

Oh, absolutely. Girl.

Unknown:

That did not go fast. Everyday was like 10 days, it was, you know, you would pull out like your puppet show and your sock puppet like all the things in your activities. It'd be like 10am with like, a data fill. Yes. And no one tells you that everyone's like, it's just, you know, filled with little gifts and precious treasures. And for me, it was like really, when Risa started going to school and getting her own personality and stories and wasn't physically attached to me and started becoming more her. That's when things started to pick up. And it's, you know, I just I wish somebody had also told me that part like it's okay, if you're not treasuring these very special special. first few years, yes. Yeah. And now it's 17. Like she's her best self like it took 17 years to sort of know who she was and get the confidence and have her opinions that are outside of my Indians and become like super thoughtful and interesting. And now she's leaving. Like, that's the heartbreak they come together. And then as we're supposed to we send them off, but like now I really, really like being with her.

Tara Beckett:

Yes, yes. And so with her going off to college, what's next for you? Is there something that you're changing up? Or? You know, what's that next step for you?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I've had a few friends told me I could borrow their kids. And I'm like, no, no, no. That's not what we're looking for the next day. It's just like you to drop your kids at my house. Yeah, I mean, the the other interesting thing about Risa is it's a one and done right. She's an only child. And so we're experiencing the first one out and the last one out. So we're empty nesters really quickly. And this is the part where I'm glad that Ezra my husband, and I have really invested in liking each other. Yes. And didn't put Risa first all the time to our own detriment in a relationship because now like, it's us. So I look forward to getting back to like that phase where we're like, dating and having adventures and traveling. But I do think, at the risk of sounding noxious, like, I think we did know that going through, I had a mom who was a divorce attorney who really preach that, you know, keep that connection alive. And so I tell that to my friends, too. Like, don't wait until the kids are grown up to go find that again. Yes. And like granted, we annoy the hell out of each other, too. We're not we're no perfect couple. Right? We did get that we can't sort of wait it out those hard moments and try to find our relationship again after she left the nest.

Tara Beckett:

Because that so it makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I spent I'm more in the little people little kiddos phase. Yeah, it is super hard to work on your marriage because you just got nothing left at the end of the day. So like you said, nobody tells you that but I just thought having kids, we would just get happier as a couple. As a job. You just add more bliss, right? Because Oh, yeah, that's what kids are all the time. Bliss machines. Exactly, exactly. I

Unknown:

remember my mom right after I had Risa. I had a C section. I was physically mentally fried. And she my mom came to stay with us. And she a night one, set a dinner table and put candles out and said you and Ezra are gonna sit and I have Risa and you two are gonna, like have a dinner date. And I was so tired. I had tears pouring down my face in my nightgown in the candle. Like it was so awful, but it was her trying to plant that seed of even when you're tired, like just keep showing up for each other. It'll come back.

Tara Beckett:

Yes. Okay, so when another Michelle Cove story is coming back to me, which is when I was so exhausted, you said girl, you're gonna get that red lipstick out of your makeup bag, and you're gonna put some on, and you're gonna exit the condo. And I was like, I don't know where I'm going. But I have

Michelle Cove:

being I don't even have lipstick. And I'm like that was clearly my mom been channeled through me Yeah.

Tara Beckett:

So Michelle, you are now a senior communications manager at experience camps. And I would just love for you to share a little bit about what your role is and what experience camps is.

Unknown:

Yeah, so experienced cams is a national nonprofit organization. And their job is to really champion the 5.6 billion grieving kids in our country who will experience the death of a parent or a sibling alike by age 18. I had no idea the numbers were that high. And so part of how they address this is they have a network of no cost camps where your kids who are in grieving families go for a week. And it's kind of the intersection of grief and joy. So kids are having sharing circles and learning to navigate their feelings around grief and getting real deal with other kids who get it and they're playing volleyball and making milkshakes and like how Big s'mores and like the camp experience, where I come in is getting the word out experience camps, but also really trying to change the conversation around grief. You know, we live in a culture that just doesn't talk about it and know what to say. And the things that people do try to say in the name of showing up are god awful. And I don't blame them. Because nobody's ever really taught us how do you show up for someone? So that's the part I'm most fired up about? Is teaching people through content, how to have these conversations and really show up for one another?

Tara Beckett:

And what would that look like? If you were to talk about the things the word that you're getting out there of how to talk about grief with somebody else?

Unknown:

Yeah, so it's interesting. I talk to so many of the kids, the campers and ask them like, What's your least favorite thing that people say to you when they hear about, you know, the death in your family? And their very least favorite thing is when people say I'm sorry, or I'm sorry for your loss? And that's the thing we've been trained as.

Tara Beckett:

Ally? Yeah, right. Like, if not

Unknown:

that, what? And I think it's okay to say I'm sorry, but that can't be. And now I've done my job. Now, I've said that thing, right? It's I'm sorry. And that must have been really hard. Can you tell me about him? Or what was your favorite memory of her? Or, you know, what do you remember? Or can you tell me a story? It's just sitting in the space with whoever is grieving? And they can say, no, they can say I don't want to talk about it. But there's so much loneliness to it. You know, everybody just wants to get away fast from you like the sad person, but just learning how to sit with them and ask them questions and just be with them. It's there's no shortcut answer. But but that's how we show up.

Tara Beckett:

Like, share it, like you said, sharing space. And I'm just as you're talking, I just realized, like, it's not about your discomfort, right? It's about or making the person talking comfortable. It's about how do you sit with that other person?

Unknown:

Exactly. And I think it applies across the boards, if we're talking about like depression or anxiety, or anybody facing any adversity, just sitting with them not trying to fix it, or give them your wisdom when nobody needs your advice. Right. Just That sounds hard. I want to hear what what's it like for you? I'm just listening.

Tara Beckett:

Yeah, as you're talking to, I think one of my least favorite in the realm of sort of the depression and adversity is the at least comment. Oh, right. So at least, you know, XYZ and sort of cancelling out whatever's happening for that person.

Unknown:

Yeah, it least, you know, you got to know your dad a little bit, right. At least your mom died really quickly, you know, and that's not comforting

Tara Beckett:

to know. Oh, no, no.

Unknown:

I came to it in terms of like, why I wanted to

Tara Beckett:

take this role. Absolutely. Yes.

Unknown:

So my dad died when I was 20. I was a sophomore in college, and I got a phone call. He was healthy, he was vibrant, he was young, and a drunk driver hit him in a car accident, and the rug was just immediately pulled out in a way I'd never experienced. And it was impossible, you know, it was impossible that that would happen. And it happened. And I know of what I speak at 20 of watching people try to show up and not having the words or the experience, I had a lot of friends kind of bail, because they were just terrified, you know, of I'm gonna make it worse. And a lot of people who said I'm just gonna give her space, you know, nobody wants space with her home alone with her like hard feelings. And I had friends like really show up in beautiful, extraordinary ways also. And so part of it was certainly that experience. And I remember thinking naively, that it would be better if you had to experience the death of someone you love for it to be over time, right? Where they got sick, and you got to say goodbye, and it was more prolonged and, and then a few years ago, my mom died in that way. And it's shitty. There's no better way to like, you know, lose somebody that you really love. And so, these are conversations that I'm really interested in having. And no one wants to be a part of this club, but it is kind of a club. Once you've experienced a loss. You are tied forever to people who've been through something like that.

Tara Beckett:

Hmm. And when you talk about the people in your life who showed up in extraordinary ways, is there a particular person or moment that just really helped you or soothe you?

Unknown:

Yes, I will share one of truly many Angeles got shout out to you, if you're listening was a friend and colleague. And she knew that lavender was like one of my soothing things. And she filled a bag with a little lavender soft, soft blanket, and a lavender spray bottle. So I could spray it to smell like lavender and put a little card in and just came to the house and left it by the door like no expectation, no anything just thinking of you. And she had never been through a death or something that would teach her how to know how to do that. It was just a purely like intuitive spectacular moment. So that was one and I'll tell you one other one, because I also never got it, which I forgot, which was my friend Kavita reached out and said, I didn't get to know your mom. But knowing you I wish I had, can we sit and look at a scrapbook and you share some stories with me of her. And that again, being toward the thing instead of reading from it was so beautiful and comforting.

Tara Beckett:

I mean, that one just gave me some chills only because not only because but it sounds like that friend was really interested in her life. Yeah, versus kind of thinking that the death was the only thing.

Unknown:

Exactly. Who was this person who raised What am I people?

Tara Beckett:

Can you speak to a little bit the gifts that you have gotten from the death of either your mom or your dad?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I talk about I have a fabulous, fabulous therapist. And at one point, she asked me about the gifts that I got after my dad died and from the accident. And my response was what? Like, What an asshole question. What happened? What it was so purple, I just sat there. And I was like, What do you mean? Like gifts that came after the death or inches? Like no, no, what death? What a death bring you as a gift that you know this loss of your dad. And I sat there and I just she said, just see what it'll come to you to see if anything shows up? And if no, no, and you gotta took me off the hook. And I realized that God dammit, like, there weren't gifts. And the biggest one was like, I don't take time for granted. Right? Like, we don't know how much time we have. And it it just pared away all the BS, like things I want. I know how to really go for them. I'm not as bothered by like, what if I get a no or what if I'm rejected? Or what if I don't hear back? Like, I don't care? Like, yeah, it's really rare. I don't and and getting this life is precious. And that doesn't mean every moment is joyful. But it is precious. And we don't know how long we have it.

Tara Beckett:

At one point on an MLK Day, you were talking about the racial grief gap? And can you speak to that a little bit?

Unknown:

Yeah, the racial grief gap just refers to the fact that black and brown people are experiencing much higher rates of death than white kids are, especially when you know, when we're looking at camp. And I think it's three times the rate of experiencing the death of a mom, and two times the experience, you know, of losing a father. And we don't talk about that a lot. And we're I think it's going to come out more and more as we look at COVID. And who is suffering and who experienced death and what communities had access to and how did this happened? I think that those kinds of conversations are going to start to explode. And it's beyond time for them and that we have to build structures and systems to support these kids and these families because they're really suffering.

Tara Beckett:

Yeah, I mean, just what you're talking about COVID I thought the most privilege we had is that we could work in our homes. That's right. It was like in we were safe in so many ways and we could continue to make an income And so that divide during the pandemic, I think just got worse and worse.

Unknown:

For sure. And I think we're talking about right now, like 200,000 kids who have been orphaned, you know, and caregivers and grandparents who are going to have to step in and raise these kids. It's a lot, a lot what's coming down the pike for us and mental health and kids and how it's gonna affect that.

Tara Beckett:

Absolutely. And is that something that you're already seeing at experience camps? That the aftermath of that?

Unknown:

Yeah, it's interesting, we've seen for sure, obviously, an uptick in COVID cases, in particular. But really what we're seeing is more and more applications that are showing overdose, drug addiction, suicide, like we're seeing sort of the secondary effects, I think that came out of COVID.

Tara Beckett:

Right, the isolation or the having to go to work and in unsafe places, and is that well, we're kind of thinking that the secondary is sort of the coping that was necessary to make it through.

Unknown:

Yeah. And who had access to any kind of, you know, coping skills, or resources or therapy or, you know, job loss issues? And yeah, how are we going to show up for these kids? You know, how are we going to support them? Like, we have 10 camps? Beyond that? What is the culture are we going to do for these kids?

Tara Beckett:

Who, oh, to switch gears just a little bit, I think there's just so much more to say about that. And I will just fully admit that that is the end of my ability to speak to it, which I think says a lot.

Unknown:

Yeah, I do think, you know, without being like, super pluggy, if you go to experience camps.org, there's a whole section on this particular issue that people can read about and get more educated and just basic information. So we do know what we're dealing with. And I think, you know, the thing about camp that I love the most is, it's really a place that normalizes this experience. So if you are a, you know, 10 year old kid and your father died from an overdose or an accident, or, you know, it's impossible to sit in school, we're no, no, you're the weird kid, right? Or on your soccer team, or you're the freak or, but like everyone, there's like, yeah, what's new? Like, yeah, we get it, you don't have to go through the backdrop and the isolation of that. And that's what I love most like, you know, when you look around, everyone in that specific way is just like you and that was getting to know them as like potential friends and people.

Tara Beckett:

Was there a specific breaking point for you that you're grateful for?

Unknown:

Oh, more than one.

Tara Beckett:

I mean, I've got time. I've got time.

Unknown:

Yeah, I one of the breaking points was after my dad died, I went into shock for a while without even knowing I went into shock. I think I numbed out and was just in that fog that people go in was sort of riding through the days. And my mom who was really good at getting to the next place, the next place the next place, and like moving everybody through, and here we go, and we're not gonna fall apart and very quickly moved me and her into a gear of like, we're gonna move we're gonna get out of this town, we're not going to be the widow family. We're gonna, you know, do this and that and get a new life. And it's what held her together. I think it's how she was built, and I at the time, so it is somewhat heroic. And looking back, I really needed to fall apart. Like, I needed the space. That was really appropriate, though, because I just lost my dad, who's also a friend who I was getting to know as an adult, it was appropriate for me to fall apart. And instead of taking that time, I sort of went with like, Operation turn our lives. Right. Yes. And like we're okay. And what happened is, it was about 12 years later when my fall apart came and suddenly the trauma hit in a hard way and it threw me because I didn't know why. And the reason why was I was safe, I was in a stable place. All round me, there were signs that said it's all it's okay now to fall apart the time is now. And when I say fall apart, I mean crying around the clock, I had diarrhea, the clock, I was a red hot mess. I was shaking a lot, I was having to show up for work and was on like one quarter capacity, like everything came on done. And it's what I needed to finally go back and heal and start rebuilding. And I, as a parent would never prolong that looking back, like you fall apart when you need to. And sometimes it gets stalled a little but 12 years now was too much. No.

Tara Beckett:

And in that journey of falling apart. Was that when you met your husband? Was that inside of that period of time? Or is it were you like when you were say I was finally safe with people around me? Was that part of your journey?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I was already with Ezra and thank God, like had built a foundation of we like each other. And we're together. Like, it'd be really hard to date me if I had nothing. What was hard is Risa my daughter was really little and needed a lot of care. And I was checked out for I would say, a good two to three months, really without capacity to take care of me or her. And that's when a partner husband is really important. He just stepped up and showed up and was really apparent, like the parent, you know, I was kind of bare minimum for those few months as I put myself back together. And I am grateful for that. That would not have been doable with somebody saying, Where's my dinner? Where's any of the things? So, so safe, meaning I had somebody really supporting me falling apart and understanding there's nothing to do to really stop it. And the only thing to do was bring your A game empathy, complained to other people, I'm sure you feel sad for yourself and frustrated, and where's my wife? But I don't think I would have made it through being who I am now, had I not been through that?

Tara Beckett:

When you talk about the way that your mom needed to get through it, and how you 12 years later got through it in a very different way. Can you speak a little bit to what that did for your relationship?

Unknown:

It was not great at first for our relationship. You know, she was the mom who really struggled when I cried or felt sad as a kid. Right? Like it was an ongoing theme for us. of, you know, I joke about it now, but her response was like have a cookie, let's buy a jumpsuit, let's get new magazines, right, there was an answer to making it better, we're gonna cheer ourselves up. And there was just not a lot of room for sitting in IQ, you know, as I call it. And so I was pissed for a while. When I came out of that, I was really bummed out that I didn't have the I had a mom who loved me and adored me and built confidence in me and lucky in so many ways, and she was such a strong character. But she was not a role model in that way. And I had to grieve that, that I missed that. And it highly, highly informed how I parent

Tara Beckett:

just gonna say, yeah, yeah, changer, right.

Unknown:

And kind of healed myself by giving that to reason. It wasn't easy, but there was no let's have a cookie it was just sitting at she cried and saying, Man, I can see this is really hard for you. Yes. And it felt so uncomfortable. Because I didn't have that experience myself. But it's what I needed and wanted and could give to her. And I'm so grateful for that to sort of break that chain of it.

Tara Beckett:

Yes. And I think she's just really lucky to have that experience. And she's lucky that you had the break down. Yeah. Because I she would have had a very different parent.

Unknown:

Without question without question. And, you know, I came back around with my mom and was able to help her move closer to have to sit in the hard feelings. I don't want to say it was like one ad. But we had good conversations about that, and how, why she wasn't able to write our stories, keep going back generations, and there were very good reasons. And so I think later it brought us closer together, but I had to be pissed for a little while.

Tara Beckett:

healthily, pissed. I like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's And were there any other breaking points for you? You that really comprise your story.

Unknown:

Yeah, the other one that wasn't quite as extreme, like an actual falling apart. But it was definitely a shake up was when I left I had started a nonprofit in 2009 Is that true? No. 14. And I was the founder of media girls. And it was something I cared about deeply and led for six years. And that's a whole story in itself. But when I decided to leave that and go back to storytelling, and take what our culture would consider a demotion, right to go from CEO and hotshot leader and this, like organization that like women especially really responded to, and it's all about empowerment. And in leaving that, before I knew what I was going to do, before I knew what job I was going to find just trying to have some faith that the right thing would appear. It was really hard it was during the pandemic, and it was a good six, seven months of not having a job. And the ego hit. I'm going from this like a woman who's running her own show. And she's empowering girls and look at her and look what she's made. And it's growing and to like, who am I without any job, forget, like a cool job, like I got nothing. And seeing how much of my identity had gotten tied to that, you know, and I I struggled you know, I think the first few months were just me hitting refresh our jobs, really looking like Now is there anything that was already there was it. And then, after a few months, where I was actually starting to go a little crazy from the job refresh. I just really got like, you may never have this time again, like you may you may not have just space, you know, of just time to like actually work on something or grow yourself or stretch yourself. You have it what do you want to learn? What do you want to get better at? And it was like this, I want to find out my value outside of a job like a real integrated value. And I started doing like free workshops online and courses and going there and really building out that what I do for a living matters to me and I want to put good in the world and it is not who I am. Those are two very different things. I'm 53, that took a real loss.

Tara Beckett:

But you got there. Right there, right? It's freedom. Yes, yes. As you're speaking about that, my brain just went to I'm in the phase of the role of mother is so strong because my kids are little that you realize, let alone letting your marriage disappear, letting yourself disappear. And just being like, I am only in existence because I am this this person to another human being, rather than being like, Who are you if you just exist.

Unknown:

And that just That's enough, right? That there is value and just tear existing in the world and being your beautiful self. Like if you strip away the roles and the like contrived identities and the job and the pod gifts, if you took away all those, you're valuable just because you're valuable, you're worthwhile because you're you and everything on that are just extensions of what you want to put out into the world. And it's such a different way to live when you like really get that

Tara Beckett:

and something I always looked up to you because it's like kind of I had this older sister in the condo it was very it was very cool. And you were way cooler than me. Totally. But you I always loved how you just said it how it was right like I had I still struggle with that just saying what I mean to say without the I think you put it actually in the thing about saying is Does that make sense? Or is that okay? Those like little tags that women tend to put on things I just I loved I just loved hearing you speak because that was absent.

Unknown:

Yeah, I think authenticity is the hottest thing in that world. People showing you who they really are like, take me or leave me this. This is me. I don't know what's better than that. I love showing up that way and I love it and other people. It's the thing I find the most attractive is just you're getting to see the real me it's beautiful. I Love it

Tara Beckett:

Michelle, to wrap up today, I just asked all of my guests and I'd love to ask you What does let perfect burn mean for you?

Unknown:

Well, I love the phrase so much. It's so relevant. I believe in our culture. You know, of all my many issues. I'm sure. perfection itself isn't one of them yet, but what I can say is that in I guess just on the heels of what I just said about authenticity and watching people and myself grow, like that's where the juicy good stuff is. I never want to stop growing. You know, I know there's going to be more Crossroads moments and I don't dread them. I yearn for them like that's how we find out who we are imperfect says to me, I'm done. I've arrived. I nailed it. Like how friggin boring to me. They're like, what are you going to do now?

Tara Beckett:

Right, you've got how well and like you said, you don't know how much time you have. What have you had decades and you've already arrived? Oh, shit, right,

Unknown:

right. or what have you have a month like no matter what, yep, those growth like that's why we're here is to grow and learn who wants to be like I hit done. Like, that is not the point of why we're going around.

Tara Beckett:

I love that. Michelle, this is it's always good time to talk to you. I'm so glad this worked out. And Michelle Cove and experience camps and I just hope everyone will check it out so that they can learn more. And if you have somebody a young person in your life who is grieving. I definitely think go there and just see if that's going to be a fit for your child. What are the ages?

Unknown:

Yep. So it's about age nine and up. Oh, great. Yeah. So all the way like 1718 And then you can volunteer. It's a lifelong.

Tara Beckett:

Well, thank you again, and we'll be in touch Michelle, you're a blast. Thank you.

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