A Time to Burn, With Author, Artist & Educator, Christine Hamel

In this episode, I sit down with Christine Hamel, an artist, educator and author the book, Sounding Bodies: Identity, Injustice, and the Voice. Before she landed where she is, she studied art, critical theory, English, classical voice, and opera. She was even the first website designer for the Independent Film Channel. But at this moment, Christine feels like it may be time to knock it all down. “It’s getting to the point where I feel like just because I’ve found success or that people want me to do certain things, doesn’t mean I have to keep doing them. I really feel like it just needs to all fall apart.”

Christine thinks about her current life as petals needing to fall away to expose the core. Those petals may be hiding something bigger. She tells us that since the pandemic and since being in her later 40s, she just keeps asking, “Did I get a chance to try this thing? Did I get a chance to take a deep dive into that aspect of life that I found really meaningful or joyful? And did I do enough? Did I do enough good to alleviate suffering? Did I do enough to care for others?”

As the mother of a trans child, Christine must grapple with how to keep her child safe: “We are absolutely terrified about the world right now and absolutely terrified about what’s going on with anti-trans sentiment and legislation. We live in this fairly liberal community, but it’s not progressive in the ways that there’s definitely space to feel safe.”

For Christine, grieving is what letting perfect burn means for her. “It’s like a little bit of the Phoenix. It’s that sense of, “why hold on to that?” There’s time for other things now, but not for that."

Highlights from Christine:

"I'm ready to let go of some things. The pandemic was a catalyst for this understanding, which is that I don't need to do everything all at once. I'm tired of trying to hold up too many projects and too many obligations. And hopefully, I have another half of my life left, but when I really look at it, I think there are still things that I would like to be able to learn to do that I haven't done, or where I feel like I want to double down on things that actually feel like I'm making a difference in people's lives in a new way, in a profound or different and more, maybe more tangible way. "

"With the voice, we often use the word natural, as I mentioned, so our whole premise is just that our voices can't exist outside of culture, and they can't exist outside of politics and they're filled with identity, and that's a really good thing. And so, just to even conceptualize stripping the voice of markers of identity, like your race, and class, or ethnicity, or gender, to get to something neutral or natural underneath can do real harm."

"I think what I would like people to know is that it's really their issue if they can't interpret or understand gender diversity. Our kid, even if they are in a process of becoming, or iterating, who they are going to be, they also know themselves— they know what they need to be and they get it. It may not be fully defined, but their inner being is in a process that feels good and whole, and that the way you may be receiving our kid is really your own issue to work out."

Don't Miss a Beat.
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Transcript

Tara Beckett: 0:23

Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I'm so glad that you're here for let perfect burn. Christine Hamel has arrived in her current career as an artist, educator, and author of the book, sounding bodies identity, injustice and the voice by following her gut done a long and winding path. But now, something inside her is saying it's time to knock it all down. Success and expectation are starting to suffocate. And although she does not know what is next for her, she is ready to start letting go, releasing the pieces that need to fall away. Christine is the mother of a trans child, and she is understandably terrified about the world right now. As anti trans sentiment, and legislation rages outside, Christine holds on to the absolute joy of being with her team. Often clowning together inside the house and poking fun at her spouse. Christine and her partner are floored watching them dance. They are inspired, watching their child own exactly who they are. And in this haven with her family, Christina started listening to what she calls an inner knowing in the marrow of my bones. Hi, everybody, I'm Tara Beckett and welcome back to let perfect burn. Today I'm really pumped to have in studio, theatre artist professor and author of sounding bodies identity injustice and the voice Christine Hamel. How are you, Christine? I'm doing well. Tara, thank you for having me. This is really exciting, a little intimidating. But I'm happy to be here. You know, Christine, when I was reading about your journey, I was really taken by what you said which is you've had a wild out of balance homeostasis. And now you feel the disintegration again. And I learned I'm already crying.

Christine Hamel: 2:50

That's probably true. Yeah,

Tara Beckett: 2:52

no crying. So something hits you there. And I would love to, for you to talk about where you're at right now where you've been and where you want to go. I know that's a lot. But let's let's go in.

Christine Hamel: 3:05

I think it's probably a midlife crisis. I think that's what it is actually. But you know, it's interesting, I was thinking back my quarter life moment in my 20s. I was, first of all the question of sort of where I am in my journey, I'm just stressed and a little dismayed that my mind goes to like career, you know, it's sort of like, what my journey is sort of centered around work in certain ways, which is no longer feeling so tenable. But, you know, in my 20s, I was thinking about how long it took me to find the path that I ended up being on in an irregular way you and I met through theater, essentially. And so it took me a long time to find that that was going to be like, the thing that was front and center, and I felt really torn and anxious and angsty and and like horrified with myself for so long that I didn't know like what Wow, all my like interests, desires, leanings were going to come together including, you know, having a family including having a, you know, a life that was connected to friends or including having a rich artistic life or whatever scholarly life so I took me a really, really, really long time to find theater. I studied art and like critical theory, English and in college and then I went and worked in new media, I was like, website designer for the first website designer for the independent film channel and I was thinking about wanting film. And then I had this big reversal I really miss performing because I had done a lot of performing growing up and in college and singing and I was like, You know what I'm gonna go whole hog on and singing you know that that was gonna be my so I like went to graduate school for classical voice and opera and that took a huge, tremendous gearshift to even get through those into the into that in a sense, because that's so incredibly rigorous does to play different kinds of things and not have those really, really tight, I don't know, parameters within which I needed to be able to express myself, you know, vocally and and as a person. So you know, I really kind of recommitted myself to performing in a different way or directing as a theatre artist and eventually went to graduate school for that. So anyway, it took me like, you know, 10 years out of college to sort of bring all of my interests and focus together. And I was just about to go to graduate school and do an MFA in acting, and then I met this person, being my spouse. Like, wait a second, I can't just flit around the country, you know, right now. And I ended up staying close to where I had been working, which I had been working in the opera programmes at Boston University, I was like, I'll, I'm gonna stay here. And maybe, maybe I'm gonna start to sew some roots here. So some roots, you know? Yeah. Yep. And so you know, and for a while that felt like, I really had a sense of integration and wholeness. And I felt extremely fortunate to have sort of found something, you know, theater, in some ways, feels it's interdisciplinary. And it also allowed me to kind of wrap my arms around all of these different aspects of myself, for a long time, and teaching ended up being at the fore, but obviously, professional work in the theater and this sort of artful, and very often really precarious dance that, that we were doing as a couple who were both theatre artists, both teachers, and how we sort of were able to, you know, build a family, we have one child, and it just, you know, make ends meet. And it just was really this dance for a long time, which was constantly shifting, like one of us was in, in the spotlight, one of one of one, the other had to sort of take a step back, and it was just sort of like trading off who was getting work when and was tiring, but we sort of, that sort of worked for a while. And really, really, up until the pandemic, you know, I think there was this sense of like, okay, I'll see you in eight weeks, I'll see you in eight weeks, you're the parent for eight weeks, you're the parent for eight weeks, you know, and that kind of thing. Another thing that sort of started to develop in my life, in the last like six or seven years was bringing back my worst scholarly self and really thinking deeply into sort of, suppositions and questions that I had around around theatre practice around voice, which is sort of my my specialty in theater training, and really wanting to take a deeper dive into, you know, understanding some of the know theoretical principles around, like, how we do our work, or why we do work and what bliss even freakin means, like, I'm starting to question. So that also felt like an act of integration, like bringing this part of myself that critical theory, part of myself that was living back in my late teens and 20s into my current life. So anyway, to get to where I am now is the long, long version long of an answer. Which is like, I'm ready to let go of some things, especially the pandemic was sort of a catalyst for this understanding, which is that I don't need to do everything all at once. I'm tired of trying to hold up too many, too many too many projects and too many obligations. And I'm also really feeling like I'm looking at, you know, this, hopefully, I have another half of my life left, but really looking at it and thinking there are still things that I would like to be able to learn to do that I haven't done or where I feel like I want to double down on things that actually feel like we're making a difference in people's lives and in a new way, in a profound or different and more, maybe more tangible way. And, and just getting tired of certain things that I just don't feel like I need to be doing anymore. And getting to the point where it's like, just because I've found success in certain things doesn't mean or that people want me to do certain things doesn't mean I have to do. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of wanted to I really feel like it just needs to all fall apart. Yes.

Tara Beckett: 9:46

Yeah. I think letting it fall up. part, I think you said something to the effect of trying to put things back together in a way that like your bone marrow understands. And I was like, oh, Christine, like, that's a big thing to try to listen to. And I don't know if you can speak to, you know, is there anything that's really calling you or really pulling you right now?

Christine Hamel: 10:23

Yeah. Yeah, there are things that are really pulling me right now there. And there's a lot of fear around those things, too, which is, you know, I got a taste of writing, you know, when I've like written a play, I've written an academic, you know, monograph I've written, but I kind of feel like writing is something I need to do more. And I have, you know, at least a couple of things that I feel like are stories that are worth telling. And I'm not sure if they're writing for solo performance, I'm not sure if they're writing for this stage, I think maybe I'd like to try writing fiction, you know, a novel, which is sort of feels like, of course, everyone has a novel. And on some level, I feel like no, I really, really do feel like it's whatever and whatever form it takes not because I want to have any particular ambitions around letting that be a professional colleague, but it does feel like it's something I need to create space to do. And I have had some fear around doing some solo performance, which I find myself in service of other people's solo work a lot, you know, like the catalysts or the director or the CO play writer, divisor, but I think I've been doing a dance around wanting to do one for myself first.

Tara Beckett: 11:41

I want to see well, and to go back to your writing and your book, I'm just taken by identity injustice in the voice. And can you walk us through a little bit? What that what was? What was the sort of your inspiration to write this book?

Christine Hamel: 12:02

Yeah, thank you. I had been having some, I guess, some qualms for some time about, you know, teaching voice and I teach voice to undergraduate theater majors and actors. And it was sort of around like, 2015 maybe, or I think it was around 2015 When there was a lot of, kind of like media conversation around. It was particularly around women's voices and the sort of vocal tropes that were happening a lot like, up speak and vocal fry. And there was also a lot of conversation in the voice and speech trainers world or the my circles theater world about, you know how awful these things were. And people were sort of like throwing away their own power by employing these, you know, it was like Kim, it was like the Kardashians. And it was like all those NPR reporters who were, you know, really creating a new vocal style, but it was kind of it was rubbing people the wrong way. And there was like, a lot of hatred, and a lot of anger was really a fascinating conversation. And I found myself on the side of wanting to maybe preserve and protect different vocal ways of being that maybe, you know, I was seeing as quite gendered, and hearing as gendered, despite the fact that they didn't sound particularly free, you know, and even though my job was around, like freeing people's voices, so I was just having an ethical problem around how to even talk about different vocal ways of being that didn't feel like you know, this, like, big open channel to express your inner life and excavate stories that had been, you know, sent into hiding, particularly from from thought in bodies that might not always feel like their stories are welcome, in certain spaces. So anyway, I just, it was just something I was thinking about. And I just happen to have a friend who is a philosopher and a feminist philosopher of the body, and it was literally just a casual conversation where it's like, oh, I have an ethical question. And she, she just was really interested in it. And, you know, it's like, what do you teach? What is it called? The natural voice is like, we've kind of like I know, Annie, we got rid of the word natural and feminist theory, like 30 years ago, however, helped me to help me think through this. And then so she got interested in it. So we really have been co authoring because there hadn't been a lot of feminist theory about the voice there's been a ton of stuff about the body and you know, generally, but but not about the voice as a part of the body and how voices are received being really theorized from that point of view. So so we both had like a gap to fill in terms of me rethinking and her also delving into a different area. So we just started to read everything we could about this topic, and I was just so happy to have you know, a project of this type where I really got to think deeply into what I do and not just take things for granted that you know, just take for granted that what what we do is theater or trainers is implicitly benign, because it's not true. You know, we have to think about where these things come from. And I don't think that had been thought about enough. And anyway, we ended up having enough material over a couple of years that we felt we had, we could we could actually put together a book. And so we did and came out this fall and, and we're still, it's like, every time we're asked to talk about it, or think about it, we really literally have to reread it, because it's like, what did we write? Like, what might have you say, Oh, that was good point, you know? A good bit. Yeah. But it's been super big challenge for me, because I'm not a philosopher, because I did not, you know, I don't even think of myself as an academic really, but I had to wear that hat. So I felt like I got this wonderful is almost like I was a graduate student with this, like, Master professor for seven years who took me under her wing. And, you know, and she had to fill in gaps in her understanding to but that was a gift to having something like that to work on was a gift. So I'm looking for the next, the next thing, and I'm not sure it's, it's, it's an academic thing.

Tara Beckett: 16:07

That's really cool.

Christine Hamel: 16:09

I love it. So yeah, I didn't really get into the identity and injustice part. But, you know, let me just say that real quick, I guess. Yeah. You know, the idea that I think, as you know, in theater training, we often talk about bodies as neutral, you know, or that they're, like, you know, sort of, I don't know, thinking about ways that we we you sort of have habitual ways of being that sometimes are really impacted by society in various ways. But anyway, with the voice, we often use the word natural, as I mentioned, so, so our whole premise is just that our voices can't exist outside of culture, and they can't exist outside of politics and, and, you know, they're filled with identity, and that's a really good thing. And so, so it's just I just to even conceptualize stripping the voice of markers of identity, like your, you know, whatever it is your race and class or ethnicity, or, or gender. And to get to something neutral or natural underneath can do real harm. That idea that there's something underneath that's on gendered or unclasped, or whatever it is, not that we're stuck in any of those things are those things can't change, or don't change all the time. But anyway, it's really fundamentally shifted my thinking about what a race even is, and what it does, and how it's really important in how we participate in relationships and social life.

Tara Beckett: 17:45

So, as you are going through this sort of disintegration that you're in at this point, can you talk to us about any breaking points that have been formed? Maybe where you want to go?

Christine Hamel: 18:04

Yeah, yeah. I think I had, like, What can I say, and not get into trouble? So no, I did have recent, a recent breaking point, I have actually this wonderful opportunity to step away from, from my own university locally for a few weeks this spring, and just be I was a guest artist at another university. And so it was just an interesting time to kind of step back from just the ways in which my institutionalized brain had been working and, and I ended up having a kind of difficult conversation at one point with really my boss here at an at Boston University. And, and I had just this this moment of feeling like, my values were not necessarily aligning with, with some institutional values around like, what prestige looks like or what what having a meaningful life and a meaningful career actually looks like. And it was around something very, rather stupid, you know, I don't even I can't even really get into what it is, but it's about really what I feel are like, arbitrary markers of success. It's a kind of thing, you know, which, which keeps me off of Facebook as much as possible, which is like, looking at other people's lives and thinking, Oh, that looks like success that looks like they've lived a successful life. And I think universities and institutions that have that where their reputation hinges on certain markers of success, that really don't have a lot of bearing on values around teaching or, or even even like a significant like contribution to the field. There's just certain things that I feel like are really arbitrary. That just made me feel like for the first time in a long time, I felt like I I don't have to justify that, you know, or I don't have to get behind that. In fact, I could step away from that and say you actually know that that doesn't align, and that's okay. Or I could still keep a relationship with that and know that that doesn't align. And I'm, that's, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just know that for myself. It felt like I had this real moment of clarity, which was like, I don't have to pretend that it aligns to pretend. Yeah. And what I want to do about that, I'm not sure but it but it really was like, something shook loose. And I was like, oh, no, that's just not me. That is just not me. And my Miss fitting, you know, with myself or whatever the expectations are. Felt like, oh, no, it's okay. It's a loss to give up a certain idea of like, who I think I should be, or who I'm being asked to be, you know, in that kind of institution. I hope I'm not being too vague. But I just, you know, I know what it's like to work for an institution, essentially. Yeah.

Tara Beckett: 21:02

Yeah, I mean, I'm putting that into my own life. And, you know, we could insert I think many different things into your story. Without the specifics of sometimes I felt like the choice was between walk away, or completely become this other thing that isn't, isn't me. Right. And I think we just spoke to is that middle ground, right, you actually have a choice to just acknowledge it, live with it. And know it's not for you. Which is, it feels like that's an empowering stance in and of itself.

Christine Hamel: 21:36

Yes, I thank you for for saying it like that. Because that is, I think, I think it is empowering to know, like, that's not me. That's not. And maybe that's that feeling of wanting certain things to fall away, you know, which is like, I, maybe it's this, I don't know, something about setting boundaries, something about saying like, I don't have to identify with that. I could step away if I wanted to, and be okay, that it's better. No, maybe just this image I have is almost like, better. No. It's like, flowery. But you know, like the idea of petals falling off. But what's left is like it's got is the core. And I think I've been holding, you know, a lot of these petals holding me up for a long time. And it's like, actually, you know, and that's what I learned about going somewhere else for six weeks, which was like, Oh, I carry with me who I am. And it's not related to my positionality. In institution or place. Yeah. Well, it's

Tara Beckett: 22:35

interesting. You got that clarity by going to another institution, right. So yeah, that clarity didn't come because you completely extracted yourself from your whole being right. It's interesting that you're like, wait a second, if I want to participate in an institution. It's not just this one that could that would want me or hold me, right. There are other options into the world. And I just love how you're talking about how things are not these finite, hard black and white choices.

Christine Hamel: 23:05

Yes. And I think sometimes that feeling that there are finite, hardened Black and White has put me in significant crisis in my in my life, and it's now feeling like, you know, maybe not, maybe, maybe it's okay to have these like these day to day negotiations matter. And they add up and take some take some bravery. Realize that, you know, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of fear that comes with changing anything. You know, yeah. How I interact with something.

Tara Beckett: 23:41

Like it. Yeah. And to be really clear with yourself, maybe of, if you let it fall away, and you're in something else, there'll be things about that, that maybe don't totally align, but you're willing to take it right. That's right. There isn't a perfect landing point.

Christine Hamel: 23:59

Exactly, exactly. It's interesting, too, because there are a lot of people I mean, the great resignation, obviously, the time went and I'm seeing in academia a lot where people are just like I'm done with institutions and done with them. And I feel like well, yeah, I get that and maybe that will be maybe that will be a path but I want to go down maybe thought about it seriously, but I don't know that it's that simple. You know, I don't know because I think we're always trying to create things and structures and it's just like which structure is actually going to allow me to feel whole and human and really center center well being you know, that's like the new nothing new but it's the primary focus at this point. Why why do anything if it's if it makes me feel bad

Tara Beckett: 24:49

you know, when you were talking with me about trying to make space for change, but that you were managing some intense Heather's gonna talk a little bit about that.

Christine Hamel: 25:04

Oh gosh. Yeah, well, these intense tethers to which I think I was referring are a real sense of obligation and responsibility to other people. You know, I think if I, it's interesting, there's a colleague who is in the UK, and there are some freedoms that he has there who just made this really big switch from being a theatre person and voice trainer and is doing something really different, just like decided done with that, I'm moving to this other thing. And, you know, I think it's really a different situation, if you have health care, you know, like, there's national health care, and if you don't have a child, and there are ways in which the tether of just like wanting to support my family, my kid is, you know, going to be applying to college. And for years, you know, there are things where it's like, I wish I had certain kinds of freedom to to make more radical changes at this point, and it may just be a delay, or it may just be smaller changes that you know, that I have oriented myself differently. And then the tethered to, you know, I've put a lot of time and care into trying to build a work situation or, you know, in a program in a way that I care about, you know, and that I want to nourish, and I want to leave the campsite better than I found it. And certainly, yeah, that feels like, it's an institutional tether, but it's like, wanting to, to keep providing, I don't know, support and care for students and, and all the things that feel really strong to me. I think, you know, so first, first and foremost, though, it's, it's, it's a, it's real, that when you have a family, and there's another, there's a child involved, it does, it does change, for me has changed my feeling of that feeling of in my 20s of being able to sort of try on a lot of different things. It's not it's harder now. Absolutely. But I do have a tremendous sort of, you know, envy for that feeling of I actually, I'm going to switch now I'm going to do something new, but I feel like I'm having a lot of conversations with people who are about my age, who are really wondering, Am I too old to to learn something new and do something new? Is it or is this the time? You know, is this Yeah, I'm to do it before I use it, you know, without having to wait until retirement? Right. Like closer?

Tara Beckett: 27:35

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, when you're talking about this, hopefully you have the second half of your life that you're at the mid Yeah. But I think the pandemic and being in my 40s, that combo was just like, hang on. If I write my eulogy right now, I want it to say some things that I really want it to say. So what is Yeah,

Christine Hamel: 28:01

that's exactly right, Tara. That's exactly right. And it may not be for me, I'm realizing it may not have to do with like, you know, legacy or impact, or maybe some of the things that I would have been thinking about when I was much younger, it's more about did I get a chance to try this thing? Did I get a chance to take a deep dive into that aspect of life that that I found really deeply meaningful or joyful? And did I do enough? Did I do enough? Good, you know, did I do enough to alleviate suffering? Did I do enough to care for others? That's sort of something I care about, suddenly much more than sort of arbitrary notions of success and, and prestige that are again, often institutional values that I feel myself out of alignment with, you know, yeah.

Tara Beckett: 28:56

And I think we get I mean, I'm gonna say for myself, I get lost in the day to day really quickly, can sort of lose my compass of some things that I want to be doing. So absolutely constant check in of like, where are we at?

Christine Hamel: 29:12

It's so frustrating. That compass is like, I love you know, I feel like I've had a couple of really clear moments in the last you know, four weeks, like, I know, I know how to orient my compass and then something like that go. It's elusive. I feel like I should know how to orient by now. But then it's broken. It's broken.

Tara Beckett: 29:44

You are a parent, your mother and I would just love for you to talk about what uh, what joys Do you have? Being a parent and then maybe what is your greatest fear?

Christine Hamel: 29:55

Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you. But Joe, I mean, it's all pretty joyful. Like I love being a parent, it's, it's the great joy of my life. And we really is. I don't regret it for a second I maybe regret like, we only had one, you know, and then that's but but listen, this kid, we're blessed, you know, I feel so lucky, this particular child and, and I, one of the things I, I love at this stage, you know, I've loved every stage, but I really like because they're 13 now is just how full of personality they are. They're so fully who they are. But also like, how much they are also like me. We get to, I mean, it's almost like it's bizarre. It's like having my little it's having like a sibling around sometimes now too, which is just so fun. You know? And yeah, of course, of course is the parent parental child relationship there. But like, we just have so much fun. You know, it's, it's awesome, you get to be silly, we get to, you know, behave poorly, we get teased my spouse, I mean, it's just like, mischievous fun. And that is truly like, I just adore that. And I also love seeing them become who they are that so unlike who either myself and my spouse are, you know that they have this other? I mean, other qualities that I just were just like, where did that come from, you know that. And I see in there, they're a dancer. And so when they dance in certain ways, we're just like, mystified by it blown away, by just how connected they are. So what's the second one of my fears? Oh, gosh, I mean, as a trans kid, they are someone that we are, I mean, absolutely terrified about the world right now, you know, absolutely terrified about what's going on with anti trans, you know, sentiment and legislation. And it's just unbelievably, it's stupefying how, how, you know, I mean, we live in this, like, fairly liberal community, but even this community is not, it's not progressive in the ways that, you know, it's, there's no, there's no, there's no space that's going to feel safe in certain ways. And it's just about, you know, wanting to help orient our kids so that they that they feel they can handle various situations, and also protects them from some of those as well in you know, in a in a life or death kind of way. And also to try to alleviate them from having to feel like they have to be the spokesperson for every single LG LGBTQ person in their school. And there's a lot of like, stress and anxiety that comes from that. And so, they're all of these things that are coming up that even when they came out, when they were, you know, in fifth grade, around being non binary, it felt sort of that was sort of manageable, and it was happening during the pandemic. And it felt like we were, you know, people were shifting pronouns easily, it was split, there was a lot of support, but, but the world keeps changing, and they are getting older, and it's all of this stuff around wanting to keep them happy and safe, are just fundamental and do feel like, could be life or death issues. So that's, that's what terrifies me the most. Yeah. And,

Tara Beckett: 33:32

you know, I guess I would love to know, like, that world that seems or is not even seems, is so threatening to a trans child. What do you wish the world would know about them?

Christine Hamel: 33:47

Yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing from, you know, even some of the most benign, you know, peers of our kid, you know, this is sort of an example of it, the idea that, you know, that it's like, being trans is trendy, or it's just a way of like getting attention, or, you know, all of these things that sort of feel like earmarks for not wanting to take that identity seriously, you know, that I think most of the time, I think what I would like people to know is that it's really their issue if they can't interpret or understand gender diversity, you know, and that our kid even if they are in a process of becoming, or iterating, who they are going to be they also are they know themselves, you know, like, they know what they need to be they get it. It may not be fully defined, but their inner being a process that feels good and whole, and that the way you may be receiving our kid is really your own issue to work out. That it's, yeah, that it's, it's not for you to decide whether or not it's a valuable identity to have

Tara Beckett: 35:00

Yes. And, you know, we were talking about how when we both became parents, our whole job felt like just stay alive and your goodly first year, it's so easy stay alive, it's

Christine Hamel: 35:19

all we got to do is keep you alive that first year. me really. I know that first year is like, so hard. But it also was so simple, you know, in a way, I enjoyed how it was simple. It was like, meet your needs, meet your needs, meet your needs. And somehow that gets harder, you know, just the simplicity of having someone's needs met?

Tara Beckett: 35:42

And do you have any advice that you'd give people who want to be or who want to become parents?

Christine Hamel: 35:50

Yeah, I mean, I, part of me, of course, feels like, who am I to give advice to anyone about that at all, and everyone's situation is so different. But I will say I was thinking about this a little bit in terms of readiness, you know, and just like that thing with, what what I want the world to know about, about my kid is that they know, they know who they are. And I think he, I think I almost took some really bad advice from, you know, a mental health counselor, actually, about my readiness to be a parent. And, you know, in my, my openness, my vulnerability, wanting to, to really be careful about that, but also feeling this, like, you know, talk about that. That compass, I sort of knew that I was getting bad advice. And I knew that I was, we were really ready in significant ways, like, emotionally ready, mentally ready, and I'm really glad I didn't heed the advice to hold off, you know, that I so anyway, my advice is don't don't listen to anyone to tell you that you're ready or not to have to build a family because, you know, you'll know, or, or trust, you know, trust that, you know, it's no one's job to decide for you, you know, anyway, I'm really glad that I, that we just did what felt right. So that's, that's the marrow of your bones feeling? No, no, actually. No, I'm good.

Tara Beckett: 37:32

And I was cracking up, because when I read the question I asked about, you know, what would you tell your 18 year old self? I was like, oh, Christine, I think we're related. It was something about I don't remember if there's something about like, I don't know, have more sex. I was like, Yeah, I was really square, you know, and I kind of, and something, you said something to the effect of just like, you know, knowing, believing that it's all going to be okay, that like, you're okay, it's going to be okay, you know, yeah,

Christine Hamel: 38:08

yeah, yeah. I think I wasn't I, for me, it was less about being square, because inwardly I'm not at all. But I was shy, you know, and I didn't take as many risks around like, building, you know, I think I came out of college with all these built in communities as an introvert that I really relied on, and that I felt really cast out into the open sea as my early 20s, and was shy about creating new relationships, including, you know, romantic relationships or sexual relationships. And I, I kind of, of course, look back, like, what was the problem? are so capable? You know, of course, they did it, but like, but I could have, I feel like I could have been braver and I've always appreciated when people have reached out to me and I've took me a long time to acknowledge that they're vulnerable to you. I'm not the only vulnerable person, you know, I'm not so anyway, so there was that but then thinking about, you know, that oh, just that that anxiety I had about how am I going to make my life work? I know, I don't have enough time, there isn't enough time or I or I'm too afraid of failure, whatever it is. I would love for my 18 year old self to know like, oh, no, you're gonna you're gonna hit all those things, you're gonna get to all those things, you know, and even when you're, you know, 1448 you're still thinking about, Okay, well, I'll fit that in before I know hope with some grace and good health and, you know, luck that there is time, you know, in a way there is time. But, and it's possible to get to get to it all.

Tara Beckett: 39:43

And now, as a woman who's 48 When you're your best self, what does it look like? Dancing wildly in the streets.

Christine Hamel: 39:57

Kinda I think I'm one of my best self is funny. I was thinking this whole podcast terror like I seem, I feel like I can default to being so formal or so like, the in charge or something, you know, but I think my best self is when I'm, you know, letting myself be needy or needful, you know, relying in a good way, like at home, you know, my best self is usually here at home. It's also my worst self in a way, where I'm just I can rage and be like, you know, irritable, and like, full of whatever that I that I sometimes get. It's compartmentalized way. But I think my best self is honestly when I'm clowning when I'm not not theatrical, theatrical clouding, but also like with my 13 year old, where I get to be a 13 year old, or we get to be playful, where I get to be impulsive. And we're nothing, you know, like, all this stuff falls away. That's, that feels like life or death when you know, like, just the ability to roll with, you know, whatever's happening in a way. But I that's also when I'm experiencing the most joy. So when it's all just like rolling around in the floor.

Tara Beckett: 41:08

All of a sudden, I have this image of find a videographer and make a silent film with your child. I love you amazing. Amazing. Like no words, you, you know, with your child doing these movies, and just it would be an incredible film. So

Christine Hamel: 41:27

funny, because we actually, in the early part of the pandemic, there was a theater who asked us to do a little promo video for there. And then they did they ended up not doing anything in this project at all. But but the point is, my spouse and I were being very, like, uptight and formal. And we asked our art at the time, I don't know, 10 year old to start, like being irritating in the background. Like we created this home. And they were like cartwheeling, they were dancing. They were playing their violin, and it was this whole clowning routine. We came up with them anyway. I think. I think beer impulse is great, because I would love to.

Tara Beckett: 42:07

Yeah, it would just be it'd be brilliant. I know your child, it would be amazing. Yes, so project, write a book, write a one person play do a film with your child. I think we've got a list here.

Christine Hamel: 42:23

Things to look forward to Yes.

Tara Beckett: 42:36

Christina, this has been amazing. I'm so glad you came on. And just before we sign off, I would love for you to speak to what let perfect burn means to you or brings up for you.

Christine Hamel: 42:47

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I was saying to you earlier, Tara, that I felt like I don't belong in this podcast, because I'm so preoccupied with perfection in a way, you know. And it's like, what, what can I have nothing to say on that front, except that I'm in the middle of it. But I think you know, for me, I can't even remember what I what I wrote. You know, when you asked me that question the first time, but it's just oh, I don't know. I think it's like, I think maybe at this point, it has a lot to do with grieving, letting things go. allowing myself to lose what I had and letting something new be born. You know, I think that's that's probably what it's like a little bit Phoenix. Like, I think that sense, you know, it's like, Why hold on life. You know, there just isn't there isn't time for that. There's time for other things, but not for that.

Tara Beckett: 43:41

I love it. Thank you. I totally did. Thank you so much for being here. And Christine. Take care and we'll be in touch. Thank you. Thanks so much. This was fun. Bye. All right. Perfect.