Still Here, With Award-Winning Mental Health Advocate, Liz Sweigart, PhD

In honor of National Suicide Prevention Month, I sit down with Liz Sweigart, an Award-Winning Mental Health Advocate, former PwC Partner, Author, Keynote Speaker, Advisor, Coach and Adjunct Professor. Liz understands to her core that the only way to save lives and to improve the lives of those suffering with their mental health is to speak truth without shame. “Until we put our voices together, we’re all just individually shouting into the void. But when we come together, that’s when I think we galvanize. We give people hope.”
 
Liz walks us through her journey with depression starting as a teenager. “I experienced depression like this heaviness, inertia, and this complete disconnection from the world. It was  like watching somebody else live my life and not having any sense of connection to myself or others.” Incredibly intelligent, Liz masked the severity of her depression as an adult through perfectionism and her ability to put together a high achieving persona. Eventually, Liz couldn’t fight her depression anymore. “I felt I was disappointing everybody at home. If I was at home, I was disappointing everybody at work. And no matter where I was, I was a disappointment to myself. And that was when I set the plans in motion to end my life. And I am really fortunate that did not happen. I have a wonderful life partner. My husband was there when I needed him. And somehow, I found enough of the words, and he was able to quickly put together what was going on and so I am here.”
 
Inpatient treatment was incredibly important for Liz to reset her body and mind and to keep her safe. But she is so clear that maintaining her mental health is a journey and that in order to continue on, she had to accept that there were no easy happy endings. That the work would be sitting in moments of discomfort and being able to tolerate them before they became crisis. “I can sit in these moments of discomfort, they will end, I can get through them. And on the other side, I will feel better. And right now, this sucks. It’s like, yes, the sun will come out and right now, it is raining. So no, it is not sunny. It is not sunny at the moment. The sun is still going to come out. Two things are true. Like the sun will come out and right now is awful.”
 
Highlights from Liz:
 
“I like to say, I have a beautiful mind and a jerk brain. My mind does beautiful things. And at the same time, my brain has tried to sabotage me more times than I can count.”
 
“I convinced myself that I could like eat, pray love my way out of this. Like I was going to be fine. It would take 12 weeks. All I have to do is get off all of these medications and I'll be fine. So I worked with a therapist and a psychiatrist and I got off all my medications and three weeks later I realized that I wasn't actually getting better. I needed the medication that I needed and that was a crushing blow to me because I felt like I'd failed.”
 
“I can do hard things. I know I can do hard things. I have done hard things before. I can do hard things again.”
 
Don't Miss a Beat.
 Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
 https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/

And my Website:

https://letperfectburn/
 

 Liz’s Website:
https://lizsweigart.com/contact

Transcript

Tara Beckett: 0:22

Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I want to welcome you back to Season Two of let perfect burn. It's September, which means it's National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. And to honor this month, my guest today is Liz Swaggart, an award winning mental health advocate, who is also an author, keynote speaker, former Big Four partner at PWC. As well as many other professional roles. Liz has battled depression since her teens, and almost four years ago, made plans to end her life. Liz tells us, I have a beautiful mind and a jerk brain. I hope her candid interview can give light and hope to all who are suffering not only this month, but always, as Liz tells us. Until we put our voices together. We're all just individually shouting into the void. When we come together, that's when I think we galvanize and we give people hope. Hello, everybody, welcome back. I'm Tara Beckett, and you're listening to let perfect Burton. And today I'm so excited to have in studio, Liz swagger. And Liz got her undergrad and history. She loves school. So she went on to get her MBA and operations and supply chain management. And then she got her PhD in psychology, where she focuses on leaders and leadership. Liz spent 20 years in business six as a partner in the big four. And then she took a major pivot. She was the co founder of a tech startup on a mission to empower young people to be safer online by helping them make better decisions. She's very public about her mental health journey. And now she is a mental health advocate. Liz, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to speak to you.

Unknown: 2:28

It is my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Tara Beckett: 2:33

So, Liz, I think to start I would love to hear what are you where and what was happening in November of 2019.

Unknown: 2:45

Oh, 2019 November. It's, it's really baffling to me that that was like three years ago next month. Because it just feels so immediate. Like it just in some ways it feels like it was yesterday. And in other ways it feels like truly a lifetime ago. In 2019, in November, I became suicidal. And I experienced the the rock bottom of the worst major depressive episode of my life. And I've been sort of navigating depression since I was about 16 years old. So I grew up in New York City. So having a therapist as a 16 year old is kind of like you know, a requirement. And I remember my therapist like we were like, I remember we are we're in the brownstone, my therapist was in a brownstone. And I remember my therapist saying to my mom that I probably had clinical depression. But for some reason that I cannot recall now, like I wasn't formally diagnosed I was I certainly wasn't put on medication, which makes sense. I mean, I'm 16 years old. But that was kind of my first data point of like, Oh, something is going on in my head. So I got to college. I moved to Houston, I went to Rice University go ALS. And as an as an 18 year old I came face to face with my first like major depressive episode as an adult. And for me depression, these major depressive episodes, they don't look like Hallmark or Lifetime movies. Like there's not like a lot of like, lying on on couches with well placed cushions like crying into a box of Kleenex. No, no like that's just it's not it. I feel nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it's the struggle to feel combined with this crushing sense of failure that I do in this place. Because everybody else is normal. I am broken. I will never be okay. I will I will never come out of this. And like, it's this. It's like the heaviest weighted blanket you can imagine. It's just this heaviness that sits on me. And when I describe not being able to get out of bed people aren't But literally, you just put your feet on, like you just roll out of bed. And I'm like, imagine feeling that you are, you are under such a heavy weight that it is, it is literally impossible to move out from underneath it. Yes. And that's how so that's how I've experienced depression. It's this heaviness, inertia, and this complete disconnection from the world. It's like watching somebody else live my life, and not having any sense of connection to myself or others, or more over a desire to. So I sort of lived with depression, my whole adult life. So like, from the time I was 18, to the time that this major depressive episode that really like took me to rock bottom happened, like I would go through like, weeks, months, even years of like being fine. Yes. And then depression, like hiding right there on the fringes, comes crashing down. And I figured out like, okay, I can keep my life going, I can keep this like poppin career going, I don't have time to stop for therapy, right, like, so I'll just I can go to like one of these sort of like clinics, I can I can get medication when I need it. And I can just push through, because I'm strong and determined and sheer force of personality. And that is not really a thing. So I got to like September, October of 2018. And I started to feel the slide into major depression. And for me, that looks like stopping self care. Like, I don't do my laundry. Like that's the leading indicator, my mental health is like my laundry, and working out. And eating well, like, the things that you do because you love yourself, and you want to take good care of yourself. So you can be there for those you love. And that just all fell away. And I went on this sort of rinse and repeat cycle where like every two to three months, I would go back to like the clinic I went to I saw a different doctor every time, right, and I would just up my medication and up my medication and up my medication. I got to June 2019, I was on the max dose of three different medications. One of one of which was like, I was an off label prescription for like as like a mood stabilizer and had some really horrific side effects that he didn't understand. And so I get to June 2019, and I am losing my short term memory. I'm losing my I'm losing my ability to put sentences together. I am I am. I am falling apart. I am so dysfunctional. I was the physical symptoms that were manifesting. Were just at one point, I went to the doctor because I thought that I mean, I was I was having symptoms that are associated with some really awful physical diseases. But all of my tests were normal. So and of course, it never occurred to me to say, oh, yeah, and all of these medications that I'm on. And so I just I got to this point, it was the week before Thanksgiving, 2019. And I realized, like, my, my kids were gonna see that, like, I didn't want to be with them. Like I didn't want to be around them because I couldn't relate to them, like, kids are really good at knowing when the adults around them are disinterested and disconnected. My greatest fear is that my children would think it was because I didn't love them. Rather than because I had no idea like I couldn't, my mind couldn't be present in any moments, because there was absolutely no feeling. And it it made sense to me at the time. Like I I remember the logic of it, that everyone around me would be better off if I wasn't here. Because no matter where I was, if I was at work, I was disappointing everybody at home. If I was at home, I was disappointing everybody at work. And no matter where I was, I was a disappointment to myself. And that was that was when I set the plans in motion to end my life and I am really fortunate that that did not happen. I have a wonderful I have a wonderful life partner. My My husband was there when I needed him. And somehow I found enough of the words and he he and he was able to quickly put together what was going on? Yes. And so I am so I am here. But the outcome of that was that I, I was just I was I was just kind of done with everything because it just felt like I am in this hole, I will never get out of it in no matter, it will not never get better recovery isn't possible. All of the things I know now to not be true and that I'm on this like mission to tell others you you are not alone. Hope is warranted, like recovery is possible. But in that moment, none of that none of that was true for me. And it took a very, very hard life reset. In fact, it took me stepping away from my job for a year or two to get well. And again, looking back like I can't believe that was three years ago. And at the same time, I feel like if I sort of reach out, I can still touch that time.

Tara Beckett: 11:03

Yeah. Sorry, Liz, I'm having a moment. It's just really difficult. Like you're one of the first people again, like I was hospitalized a year ago. So it yeah, like I can understand it feels really far away. And then it feels like oh, I just did that yesterday. But you're speaking to the experience in such a way that is so candid, that I just want to hear more people like you. Because it is still very silent. And how helpful it would have been for me to hear your voice before, you know, last year for me. So I love what you're doing already. I know we're not at the interview. Just how powerful that is. Thank you.

Unknown: 11:49

And thank you for being so bold in in sharing your own experience. Because you're right until we put our voices together. We're all just individually shouting into the void. But when we come to when we come together, that's when I think we galvanize, we give people hope. And so I am so appreciative in all of what you're doing. Just just to center and amplify the voices of people who've had the shared experience. And it is it there are dimensions of it that we find resonant with each other. And then there are things that are just uniquely personal to each of us. Yep. And it's really like, this is not the Olympics of suffering. So it's, it's not a it's not a competition. But to quote the Kaiser Chiefs, it's not a competition, but I'm winning. It's one of those things, though, right? Where I think the especially when you look at sort of social media and Instagram and things like that, like somehow it almost becomes this like competition for some folks. And I think what I love what you're doing here, but I do think that as as we just create space for people to share their own experiences, to hear from others to find those points of resonance, and then to respect the differences in our experiences. Sure. Because what we each experience, that was our reality, that was completely valid for us. And others may not experience depression the same way I did. My experience will be different from theirs. And we are we are still part of this community. That as I like to say I have a I have a beautiful mind and a jerk brain. I love that we live in this space, right? Like there's occasionally it feels like there's these two competing factions in our heads, right? Like, my mind is my mind does beautiful things. And I know that I mean, you mentioned I love school, right? Like I've I've had this incredible opportunity to like, think and do really cool things. And at the same time my brain has tried to sabotage me more times than I can count. When you say help, that's that's such an important it's, it's it's an important word. It's also a very broad word, especially when we talk about mental health and well being. I really love the framework and the end the program that is provided by a mental health first aid. International Program it you know, it's very readily accessible here in the United States. dates. And it really just gives you as an adult these ways of supporting others who are going through a mental health challenge that focuses on how do we get you to to professional help? How do we get you to people who know how to help. And also it recognizes that there is no one size fits all. So what I like is that I like I like approaches where nobody is vilifying or demonizing talk therapy, or medication, or, or other or holistic wellness practices like yoga, and exercise movement as medicine, sleep, eating well, there are so many things that go into our mental health and well being. And there are so many tools at our disposal, to to maintain to get mentally healthy to maintain our mental health. I think that it's so important that when we realize that when we sort of offer help, we're not offering a one size fits all. And we are respecting that different solutions, different choices will be right for different people at different stages of their lives. So I have I have had some really awful experiences with medication, really awful. And I also know that medication has helped to save my life. Right? So it really has been being able to work with really good professionals in mental health who can iterate with me because I wish that it was like set it and forget it, but it isn't mental health is it's iterative and you keep working through it. A little digression. I had I convinced myself sort of immediately after I was out of the danger zone like not to get all Kenny Loggins here. But like, as soon as I was sort of out of like the suicide Danger Zone, I convinced myself that I could like Eat, Pray Love my way out of this, like I was going to be fine. It would take like 12 weeks, all I have to do is get off all of these medications, and I'll be fine. So I worked with a therapist and a psychiatrist. And I got off on the medications. And three weeks later, I realized that I wasn't actually getting better. I needed I needed medication, that I needed that. And that was a crushing blow to me because I felt like I'd failed. I was so convinced that I'd failed. And then I double failed. Because after I went back on actually needed to increase the dose. Yeah, yeah. And that was just like, oh my gosh, like I am the worst. Like, I even suck at getting better from like, depression. And what I had to get to this point of was like, why am I why why am I having this reaction to a tool to help like to, like legitimate help and support? Like, why am I having why? Why is it that I have internalized our societal view of mental health as a character flaw? This? No. And I think when I was able to kind of reject that. I just, I was like, You know what, this is what this is what is helping me to be me at my best right now. And so I am going to do that. But again, in society, like, we don't get mad at like, like nobody, nobody is ever going to say to somebody with diabetes. You know, if your pancreas just tried harder, totally, like really? 100%. Like, if you really if you were just a better person, your body could process sugar appropriately, like to no really no, like, here's insulin. Oh, look, it works. And that's the thing. It's like, this is like a malfunctioning pancreas is not a character flaw. Just as whatever is happening between my brain and my mind is not a reflection on my worth as a human being. And so I have tools. I have techniques, I have support I have I have professional help that I can bring to bear on my mental health to be the best me I can. So I'm going to do that. Yeah,

Tara Beckett: 19:29

yeah. I mean, I completely agree. And I also just tried to honor the fact that it still really bothers me. Like, there's something about when I have to do the strip, like I have a like a flick. You know, pillbox? When I'm taking them regular, I'm good. And then there's something about refilling them, that I can see them all and I'm just like, What the hell is happening? Who the hell are you that this is your life, and you're on way more than you were when you were hospitalized? What the hell? And then it's like That's not nice, that's not fair that you are not being kind to yourself, and what is that going to do. And this is making you be able to do things like your podcast, write your book, be with friends, like, be present with your children just knock it off.

Unknown: 20:16

It's a hard message, right? Like, it's a hard message to deliver to ourselves because, and I, you know, not to not to circle back too hard to the theme of the podcast. But as somebody who used perfectionism as a weapon to attempt to fight depression, like, I thought that I could perfection my way out of depression. I mean, I thought I could perfection my way out of a lot of things in life. Same, but it was, it was like, if I if I just set up because what what perfectionism gave me was an incredibly rigid framework that that substituted for the that while stood in for the lack of control I felt in my life, because like, I feel, I feel powerless over what's happening in my mind. So what I am going to do is adopt this incredibly rigid structure for how I'm going to do things. And so if I am perfect, if I if I just do everything exactly right, then somehow, I will have control. And these other things that are going on will miraculously be defeated, which is also completely not true. So it's like, okay, well, if I if I hit all of like, and for me, it's compounded by the fact that I have OCD, which I found out about during my year long recovery. So obsessive compulsive disorder is it's similar to depression, it is horribly misconstrued or misrepresented in the media. Not all of us are alike. We're not all neat freaks. We're not monk. OCD is, is really the experience of having intrusive thoughts, like, in other words, things that think she thinks you don't want occupying your mind. Because either they're irrelevant, or they're harmful. But things are thoughts. You just like they don't belong in your head at that time. And they just plant themselves. They're like, they're like squatters, right? They just move in. And then they slowly start taking over to the point that this intrusive thought becomes an obsession. And it's like a pressure cooker. So it's bottled up. And so you're pushing this down again and again, and trying to contain it, contain it and contain it. And finally, it gets to a point where the only way you can relieve this pressure, this tension, this not clinical anxiety, but this is sort of like anxiousness is is some is to act. And that's the compulsive piece. And how it's read by others is it's read as impulsive. And it's like, no, this is an impulsive, I didn't just decide to do this, this has been bottling up forever, right. And so when you also have this tendency of having these intrusive thoughts become obsessions that you then have to act on, I found that it really can be this double whammy, because things that things that play so well, to my natural desire for perfection, become these obsessions. So, for example, things that now and again, when I say them, they sound so ridiculous out loud, but in my head, it is like Bible truth. Steps, I have to get 10,000 steps a day, like so the idea enters my head, that if I don't hit certain benchmarks, then something bad is going to happen. Like I I'm, usually it goes back to body image, like my my, so I'm just gonna leave that there. I don't want to not get triggering into that. But it becomes connected to that. And so I will lose hours at a time being so focused on Well, I have to hit this particular metric. And I have to do this and I have to do that. Because if I don't, this overwhelming obsession, this that I have, I can't tamp it back down. And again, like my neighbors would be like, Wow, you're really into fitness. And I'm like, Yeah, that's the reason that I walk in circles around like my little neighborhood like when I was when I was in the process of recovering. I did a lot of circles around the neighborhood. And it took a lot of work with my therapist to get past the point of I'm being so having my life ruled by these obsessions, and then these compulsive actions. So it's it's one of those things where I think are we have some of us like we have these these natural tendencies toward perfection, or at least the pursuit of it, we will never achieve it. And it becomes this substitute like this stand in for control, which we don't feel. And rather than learn how to be uncomfortable, and sit in that learn how to learn how to sit in the discomfort. That's when the compulsive actions come in. So one of the things that I've had to work on is learning to keep those thoughts at bay, keep them from becoming obsessions, and recognize that I will, there's discomfort that I have to sit in, like life is hard. And there are things that I have to just sit in. Yes. And that building that level of endurance like that, that mental fortitude. That's a huge part of my recovery. And, yeah, it doesn't come in pill form.

Tara Beckett: 26:15

Right.

Unknown: 26:17

And it's, it's part, it's part of my it's part of what I do, it's not everything.

Tara Beckett: 26:31

So what would you say is your current challenge? You know, you're three years out from sort of the rock bottom? Like, what do you feel good about today? And what what kind of keeps keeps you keeps you moving? Like, needs to have attention?

Unknown: 26:47

I love that. Um, well, it's just, it's a really insightful question. So what I am most attuned to, I'll put it that I'll phrase it that way. What I am most mindful or aware of right now is hubris is because it would be really easy to say, Look at me, I'm great. Everything's wonderful again, which, by the way, is how I spent the first 20 years. Everything's fine. It's, it's complacency, right. It's, it's feeling like, oh, well, I'm doing so well. I mean, do I really still need the medication? Like I'm doing so well, like I do, you know, don't really need to keep going with therapy. Like, you know, like, Isn't isn't therapy for when you're really bad? Like, what do I have to talk to my therapist about everything's great. It is getting into a place of thinking that somehow this is like, there's a destination, there is not a destination, there are there are ways there are waypoints, right? There are milestones, there are waystations. Like, there, there are stops along the journey, but it's a journey. So for me, it's, it's not letting myself think, Oh, I'm fine. I don't need anything else. Therapy therapy is just as much for the good times as it is for the bad times. Therapy is just as much a preventative health measure, as it is and a treatment in an acute situation. So I think it's continuing to approach therapy with the intent of how do I how do I keep working through my stuff? How do I how do I keep taking the steps to care for me? When it kind of feels like, you know, I think I'm like, aren't I done with this? By no, like, I should be finished? Right? It was three years ago, like, we're good. No, no. And, and also, just, I think it's a corollary to that is not getting too down when I have like bad days, or even a bad week, and like really trusting myself to put the tools to work when that happens. And and recognizing like I have not failed because of how to bad day. Like depression is like the person nobody invited to the party who doesn't seem to know that it's time to leave. So it's like I guess we're here it's really funny, I when I look at like where I've pulled various tools, I birth pulled various tools that I use. One of the biggest tools that I have that I draw on Now, funnily enough, I learned in a I learned in a place you wouldn't think that like, mental health and wellbeing, coping skills would be would be, like, abundant. And it was actually the pressure of being a partner in the Big Four, because one of the things I had to learn was that not everything that feels like a crisis in the moment it actually a crisis. And when you're in a very senior leadership position, you set the emotional temperature of the room. Yes. And so if I freaked out, everybody around me was gonna freak out. Because when something went sideways, you could always you can always really tell that everybody knew something was going sideways, because all of a sudden, they'd all look at me. Like, look at me, and they're like, Mommy will solve this. And, and it's the thing is that, that I came to realize, like, it was such an amazing training ground for understanding is this and I would ask, is this a crisis? And the answer 99% of the time is actually no, it's not a crisis. It's really uncomfortable. It's going to be very unpleasant to get through it, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna hurt a little bit, there's probably going to take a couple, it's probably going to require some extreme humility. But yeah, not a crisis. So if it's not a crisis, it's manageable. Like this very manageable and it is a crime that 1% of the time, it is a crisis. You've got you've got support, you've got partners, you've got people, you are not alone. And being able with my own mental health to ask myself, Is this a crisis? And then realizing no, sis, actually, it's not a crisis, right? Nothing here is fatal or final.

Tara Beckett: 31:55

It just sucks. Yeah.

Unknown: 31:57

And we're and and I can do hard things. I know I can do hard things. I have done hard things before I can do hard things again. That's, that's, that's been one thing that's been really valuable for me the other one, and we sort of joked a little bit about this before the pre show. I mentioned sort of movement as medicine and physical exercise as a important element of my overall well being but certainly how I helped manage my mental health. And I joked about a peloton. Leader leaderboard. So my most of my, one of my dearest friends got got me into peloton with her as sort of I was just sort of there as like, I was sort of her emotional support peddler, she, she, this was something during the pandemic, it was something she really wanted to do. And she wanted a buddy and that was like, alright, I'll, you know, go along. And what I discovered was the was a type of training that professional cyclists have been doing forever and ever, in fact, many professional or just, you know, advanced athletes have been doing where you work, you work in zones, so on on the bike you work in, in zones that are levels of effort. And the goal is that you establish kind of like, what is what is your threshold? Like for power? Like what's, what's the threshold that you can like, keep at for like, an hour before you're just like a puddle on the floor? And then how do you systematically work yourself up to pushing that threshold higher? Like how do you? How do you how do you put in the work to improve, like, your thresholds, your baseline, your level of fitness. And what I found out is that that kind of training involves prolonged periods in the saddle, in, in, relatively like, in uncomfortable, but not impossible levels of effort. Right. And when I first got into it, I was just like, wait, I'm here for 90 minutes doing what? And, and what I what I've learned, though, over the time that I've been doing this for last couple of years, is I have learned how to pace myself through these periods of real discomfort. It's like yes, this is uncomfortable. And I know it's going to end but I know it will end in fact, I can watch if I really want to I could watch the clock until it ends, which by the way makes it slower. Like I know when this is going to end, I know what I need to put in between now and then I know I can do it. And over time I have become more comfortable in the uncomfortable. And that is when I think about like what is the number one element that is that has contributed to my recovery and then my continued well being And that is that I have learned how to work through these periods of discomfort without having to self medicate I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about prescribe medication without having to self medicate, whether that is with food that is with alcohol, that is with something else that is really not additive or creative to my well being. But I've learned that I can sit in these moments of discomfort, they will end I can get through them. And on the other side, I will feel better. And right now this sucks. It's like yes, the sun will come out. And right now it is raining. So it is not sunny, it is not sunny at the moment, the sun is still going to come out. Two things are true. It like the sun will come out and right now is awful. Yes. And just living living in in paradox, right? Because that's kind of life, like we live in this space where like, there were things that are like, wow, this is really tough, this is really hard. I would really like this to not be happening. And knowing Yes, there will be a time when it isn't. And right now I just I need to hang on to get to that time. And I know that I can. I know that I can. And I know that I don't have to do something destructive to myself to get through to that to that other side

Tara Beckett: 36:37

well, there's I also, you know, you touched on, you know, your daughters, when you were, you know, really sick. But in your wellness, like, can you describe some of the joys that you have with them?

Unknown: 36:50

Oh my gosh, they're so awesome. I, my daughters are so cool. Like, they're like, I, I look at them, and I'm like, how am I or mom, like, they're, they're super cool. You know, I, um, I've talked to them openly but age appropriately, right? They're eight and 10. So I talk to them openly and age appropriately about how I how I take care of all of me. So they see me exercise, they love they, they love to exercise they, they want they want to exercise with me, they enjoy going on walks my elder daughter and I have actually like, we've done five K's in different parts of the world together. We actually did a 5k on her fifth birthday in Melbourne, Australia. They, I think what's most wonderful about about them and about being able to be present with them is one watching them learn. Like it's really fun to watch them learn and figure stuff out. It's also wonderful to watch them develop opinions, like as their as their own little people. And let me they have points of view, they have very clear points of view. And it's, I'm never I never cease to be amazed by their boundless creativity. They, they love what we call dramatic play. So in their room, they will transform the let's see recently, what have they done, they transformed they transformed the room into a hotel. Perfect. So you had to make a reservation. And then you came and like they had they had created like little rooms and they had like there was a there there there was there was the Plus there was the Premium Suite and then and then there was the platinum suite and okay loyalty cards. I mean, they really they really want. I just I love to see this right like it's just, I love watching them. Just watching their creativity, watching their innovation. And just and seeing how, how they are internalizing, taking care of themselves. I don't know that I've ever been happier than when my elder daughter was just like, Mommy, I would love to go on a walk for you. But I wasn't with you. But I've I've had a long day. And I think the best thing for me to do is sit on the couch and read and I'm like, Yes, yet you have. I was she was like, I know you really want me to go on a walk with you. But I need to sit on the couch and read and I'm just like all parenting stops now it's not going to get better. Like yeah, that's that's that's it right? Like you know what you need to do for yourself right now. And you are you don't feel you know that you are empathetic that I would enjoy doing this with you. That matters to me. You recognize that this would mean a lot to me. And you're kind in telling me that you don't want to do the thing that you know I want to do and you are also not doing what your mother Do which is do what would make the other person happy?

Tara Beckett: 40:03

Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm

Unknown: 40:05

like, wow. Okay, so, um, it took me like 40 something years to figure that one out, but you managed to do it at the ripe old age of 10. So, um, all right, you're winning. I mean, I think that isn't like isn't that really what we're all ultimately striving for is setting an example or creating and fostering an environment where other people can be kind can be empathetic and can also prioritize that which they need for their for their wellness. So yeah, it's been it's been quite a journey. And, you know, I still believe that like, even better days are ahead. While I know that there are going to be difficult ones too.

Tara Beckett: 40:51

Yeah, yeah. Liz. Oh, this is a good one. Thank you so much. And I before we end, I would love to hear for you what let perfect burn means.

Unknown: 41:05

It means let letting go. It means it being setting perfect means throwing perfection into the bonfire. And letting go of this belief that there is that there is perfection when really there's only progress.

Tara Beckett: 41:23

Thank you so much, Liz. Oh, my gosh,

Unknown: 41:25

thank you. I want to like reach to the screen and like a really big

Tara Beckett: 41:29

me, too, will be in touch. I can't wait for to see what you do next. Meanie. I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you are a pioneer out in the world, especially for those corporations that you used to work for. I think that your voice is really needed in those places that tend to attract people like you who are, you know, smart and driven and perfectionist, you know, just if they can hear that there's another way and still doing the job that they do. I think that'd be so amazing. Liz, thank you,

Unknown: 42:03

Tara, thank you and thank you for being you. Thank you for being bold and stepping into perhaps a time in your life you didn't necessarily expect maybe even want and for just creating this space. You're a beautiful human and I am so grateful for you and your voice and your work. And I am here so you are never alone. Thank you again so much for having me. Perfect